Transcript:

Ben Smith:

Welcome everybody to the Retirement Success in Maine Podcast. My name is Ben Smith and I'm one of the co-hosts here on the show. Listeners, hope you're all doing well today. If you want to be a part of the show, you can email us at bensmith@guidancepointrs.com, or find us on YouTube, Facebook, or LinkedIn, or just search Retirement Success in Maine Podcast to find additional content. At this time, let me welcome the Cooper Flagg to my Cindy Blodgett, Curtis Worcester. How you doing today, Curtis?

Curtis Worcester:

I'm doing well. I'm doing well. I like the comparison here. That's a good one.

Ben Smith:

The Maine basketball players.

Curtis Worcester:

That's right.

Ben Smith:

Yep. A few weeks back we were talking with one of our older clients and they were expressing to us that... It was a lady and she felt that she had control over her retirement. [inaudible 00:01:12] planning was good. Relationships with her loved ones were good. But the one thing she really hadn't addressed was just end of life, and she wasn't just talking about paying for a funeral or burial or will from her attorney. She's really talking about her legacy. What would she say to each of her loved ones about their relationships? How did she want to comfort her loved ones about her passing? What about those of us who have someone who's getting older, but they don't want to address their end of life and plan around that? How should we approach that delicate conversation? So of course, whenever those things come up, and again, we're the money people, we're the financial people, so that's us to go find someone to navigate the topics.

So we found someone. No, we didn't found someone, we found the someone. So we found a world-renowned retirement coach who specializes in helping retirees find meaning and purpose and discuss these challenges that every retiree faces. As you know, our goal is to equip you with the knowledge and tools to confidently approach this stage of life, ensuring that your retirement is not only successful, but also profoundly satisfying. So whether you're just beginning with us today on episode 98 to think about retirement or already enjoying your post-career years, this episode's going to be packed with valuable insights for you. So let's dive into this conversation and help you thoughtfully plan out our end of lives and the impact it has on our loved ones.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah, that's exactly right, Ben. At this point if have people have tuned in, they know we love bringing guests on here. So our next guest, as you mentioned, Ben is a renowned therapist, relationship, and executive coach, writer, and speaker with a deep expertise in retirement and aging. With over 50 years of life expertise in the fields of life transitions, adult development, planning, and positive psychology, our guest has dedicated her career to helping individuals navigate the transitions and challenges of midlife and beyond. She is a sought after expert in the areas of retirement planning, life coaching, and creating meaningful life changes. Our guest also holds a PhD in clinical social work from Smith College and is a licensed psychologist. She has earned a reputation as a thought leader in the retirement coaching industry. She's the co-author of the acclaimed book, The Couple's Retirement Puzzle: 10 Must-Have Conversations for Creating an Amazing New Life Together, which offers invaluable insights into the dynamics of relationships and retirement.

Our guest is also the owner of the Revolutionize Retirement community, where she provides a platform for professionals and individuals to explore the psychological and social aspects of retirement. Her innovative approaches and compassionate guidance have empowered countless clients to embrace their later years with confidence and purpose. Her contributions to the field have been recognized with numerous awards, and she frequently shares her expertise through workshops, webinars, keynote presentations. Her work has been featured in major media outlets as well, including the New York Times, Forbes, and the Wall Street Journal. You can find her at revolutionizeretirement.com. You can see her TEDx talk on YouTube and search for books that she's co-authored or contributed to on Amazon.

Over the past 12 years. She has also hosted a monthly series called Revolutionize Your Retirement: Interview with Expert Series to Help You Create a Fulfilling Second Half of Life. You can also find podcasts of her prior interviews at Revolutionize Your Retirement Radio, and you can search that on any of the major podcast platforms. And I'll pause there and say everything that I just rattled off is worth checking out, and we're going to have links to all of it in our blog here at the end of the show and in our show notes. But with that incredible background, please join me in welcoming Dr. Dorian Mintzer to the Retirement Success in Maine Podcast. Dorian, thank you so much for coming on our show today.

Dorian Mintzer:

You're welcome and I'm delighted to be here. My passion is helping people think about these topics, so thank you for inviting me.

Ben Smith:

Perfect. Dorian, of course on this show, we always want to get to know our guests a little bit and just start off there. Obviously, you have a really robust CV and resume that we described there, but love to get a little bit of your background in terms of adding some color here in terms of where you're originally from and how did your upbringing lead you to a career of retirement coaching?

Dorian Mintzer:

That's always an interesting question and some of what I'll be talking about later is doing a life review. I say that I do that and it's led me to think about that question. I moved around a lot during my first 13 years. Initially born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, then lived in Waterbury, Connecticut, then Indianapolis, Indiana, and then Oakland, California, and then ultimately as an adult came Midwest and Mideast and East again. So it's given me an opportunity to just recognize and understand change. Change is the event. Moving was not easy all the time. It's resulted in not having friends from way back because we would uproot and move. So change is the event, transition is how we go through it. And it's helped me really think about it and understand transitions. There's always an ending, this unknown period, and a new beginning.

And it was interesting when I think about it that when I was 13, although I didn't want to leave Indiana, I decided to very consciously reinvent myself. So that was my first thinking about self-reinvention. I was sort of chubby and I lost weight when we moved out there. I made a point of instead of holding back and being shy, I was just going to force myself to introduce myself to people and get to know people. And it really did help in that transition. In addition to learning about transitions and having that be a big part of the work I do, retirement and what happens next is a big transition, but we have transitions throughout life, I also had an experience early on with death, with death of pets, a neighbor who was my age, a beloved teacher, grandparents.

So I really learned early on that death punctuates life and that there is an end and an impermanence to things. I know that it has really colored much of my work of really wanting to live as vitally and fully as one can. In addition, in my twenties right after I got my master's in social work degree, two things happened. One, there was a dear friend of mine who was dying of leukemia and I became a confidant of hers. We would just spend hours talking about life and death. She almost died a few times and we would be dealing with it. And then I also had an experience of almost drowning, a near-death experience. And some strangers saved me. And when I was more underwater and realizing I did not want to give up, my life flashed in front of me as there always are these stories of it. I just couldn't believe I was going to have to give up this way.

I didn't know that some people had gotten some other rafters to come and help me, pull out of the whirlpool, but I made some vows and promises if I lived. It helped me realize I really wanted to live and there were things I wanted to do and commitments. It was a real pivotal turning point in my life to not take life for granted and to just say, be grateful and live life fully and have a voice and do the things you want to do. I think that was another really important turning point in my life. So I think all of these things. But I also did some volunteer work starting at age 10 working with seniors.

So I've always had an understanding and interest in lifespan development, in positive psychology. That came later. But in the goodness of people. And I think maybe having strangers save me of really realizing that of... So all of this I think has informed parts of my life to become a helper, a retirement coach, somebody helping people with transitions at various points of life. And one added thing. I know this is a long response.

Ben Smith:

No, that's perfect.

Dorian Mintzer:

The one added piece is I was considered one of the quote, "Leading-edge boomers." I don't know if you remember, but there was all this hype about the people born in 1946 we're all turning 60, and it was like, yikes, what is this all about? And I knew that my being 60 was so different from my parents when they were in their 60s. And so I began to decide, "I want to understand this." And I began to read a lot about adult development. I set out an email to people in the universe of different organizations that I was part of, and I brought people together to talk about positive aging. What does this mean to be turning 60? And that was the start.

[inaudible 00:10:46] 2007, I started what I call my Boomers and Beyond Special Interest Group, and we met twice a month. I thought it would be once a month, and people really wanted this. And so we met twice a month. It was interdisciplinary professionals, financial planners, educators, coaches, therapists, authors, and we would talk about aging. We'd read books. As a springboard for discussion, I began to bring in speakers. And then in 2012, having been to so many conferences and hearing and meeting terrific people, I just wanted to bring that to people. And I started the program that you mentioned, my [inaudible 00:11:25] Tuesday Interview with Experts Helping You Create a Fulfilling Second Half of Life. So I think all of these things for me have led to my evolution of working with people in this second half of life transition. Although I still do work with people at other... I love working with people at all life stage. Anyway, that's a little about me.

Curtis Worcester:

That's fantastic, Dorian, I appreciate you sharing all that. We've built up to this point now in your life story, if you will. Can you talk to us now a little bit about Revolutionizing Retirement and that brand that you've created and committed your work to at this point?

Dorian Mintzer:

Sure. So initially Revolutionize Retirement was focused on women and a colleague of mine actually started the platform. And then when she decided to retire, I became the owner of Revolutionize Retirement and I expanded it, changed it. I wanted to work with women, men and couples. And I've used it as a community and a platform for different programs, for my speaking, for my coaching. It's been really wonderful. And as I said, I set up... I'm in my 13th year of my program. I offer workshops, speeches. And I invite any of your listeners to check it out. You can see the TEDx that I had done there. The books that I either co-authored or contributed to are all listed there and then you can check them out if you're interested in on Amazon.

And in addition, I have a giveaway, a free giveaway once you go to my site. It's resources based on the chapters of the book of the 10 Must-Have Conversations, but they're resources about retirement and about expectations and relationship, about obligations and responsibility to family, about end of life issues. I think some of your listeners may find that resource list really helpful too.

Ben Smith:

Yeah, we'll certainly link that. Again, we'll put a pin right now. [inaudible 00:13:39] and press pause if you go to our blog right now and you can... You'll be able to click on that or again, going to revolutionizeretirement, as well, dotcom, and you can go there. So if you want, press pause, go to the resources page right now. Unpause when you got it. So Dorian, thank you so much for that because I think that's really helpful to give context of all the conversations that we're going to have today.

I know what we wanted to really dig into is obviously as with all your expertise, there's so many angles that we go and I think what we love is that we're going to go somewhere that maybe on our show we haven't gone before and that's this end of life planning concept and to go beyond the burial piece or just a will piece. So we want to talk about [inaudible 00:14:27] as we plan for our retirement, we're going to focus on financial stability and lifestyle choices a lot, especially with our practice. But there's another important aspect, obviously is that end of life. So how can individuals approach this sense of topic of end of life planning and what are some key considerations to ensure that our wishes are respected and fulfilled?

Dorian Mintzer:

It's such an important question and it is one often avoided. I often say when I give talks that money, sex, and death seem to be taboos and you may deal with the money part, but helping people open up about that. A lot of people don't want to think about the reality of death. Personally on my own life experiences and even in my own family when we've dealt with these things with my parents, they both died in their 70s, it's actually an act of love and liberation for the survivors to have these conversations. And I personally do believe that recognizing one of the commonalities we all have is that we all at some point are going to die. That can help make life more precious. So I do encourage people early on to have these conversations. It's liberating. It's not like you can have it one and done. It's like a financial portfolio. You may make some decisions and then you need to reevaluate it periodically.

There are a few resources that I want to mention to people that I think can help, but. But just starting, it can be as simple or difficult as, "There's some things I've been thinking about I'd like to talk with you about" or, "So-and-so recently died or passed and it got me thinking about." And the interesting thing, and I think you alluded to it, Ben, at the beginning, sometimes the older people don't want to talk about it and the adult children do, and sometimes the older people want to talk about it, the parents, and the children don't. Not unusual, but I really welcome people to think about don't let that be a closing the door. There is online something called the Conversation Project. So if your listeners can know, there's a free starter kit.

It actually was developed by a woman by the name of Ellen Goodman who was a Pulitzer Prize journalist with the Boston Globe. And when her mother was dying, she began to realize how often people don't talk about these things. So there's some videos that are available, there's a starter kit, and I do think that it's really helpful to have that. But I think just a simple, "I'd like to talk about." And hopefully knowing that it's not going to be a one-time conversation, that it may be the beginning of many conversations. There's also another resource that I want to mention to people that's called Five Wishes. You can google Five Wishes and it's available online or you can order a copy. And again, it's really helpful.

It's part of what's often known as an advance directive. So the Five Wishes basically are first of all dealing with who do you want to be your healthcare proxy or your power of attorney for health issues. And you also need a power of attorney for financial issues in the Five Wishes. And what's interesting to again think about and I'm offering these things, because it is helpful if you think about it yourself first and then you're a little bit more versed in wanting to sit down with people. Part of what I like about Five Wishes is it gives many different examples of different things. And so you can cross off what doesn't relate to you or you can add.

But the first part is who is it that I would trust to honor my wishes at the end of life? Sometimes [inaudible 00:18:26] "Of course it's going to be my son" or my daughter or my niece or whatever, but sometimes that gets complicated or if there are multiple children and people have different ideas about what they think you want. So the clearer you can be about what's important to you. And then choose somebody that you think will to the best of their ability honor your wishes. It is true, there's so much in life we can't control and one can go through all these exercises and still something could happen unexpectedly and nobody can honor these because of just circumstances of [inaudible 00:19:02] in life. But it is a liberating good feeling to feel like you can control the parts you can.

So the wish number one is really thinking about who can I trust to make these decisions if I'm no longer capable of making them for whatever various reason. The second is medical decisions. And we all vary on that, but what's listed there. And again, there are many things to think about, but do you want to know the truth about whatever it is you have or do you want that to be withheld from you? People vary on that. Do you want the doctor to listen to what you have to say in the questions or do you want to defer to the doctor to make decisions for you? Things we don't always think about, but I think are helpful to think about. And again, there's some examples that are there.

The third wish is how comfortable do you want to be? And again, people can say, "I don't want to think about this." But often it can be that people don't want to talk about it because afraid of death and just that unknown. But it can also be a fear of dying and pain or the treatment that one might have and fear of just the unknown. So what do you think you'd like if you were in your final stages? Things like ice chips or wanting music or wanting people to rub your feet or wanting people to talk with you. It's helpful to think about that. I know when I was helping my mother die, she was in a coma at the end. I didn't know then that hearing was the last sense to go, but just intuitively, I talked her through parts of her life that I was aware of from her childhood and our life as a family. And I know she could hear, even though she was in a coma because she [inaudible 00:20:56] tears in her eyes at really appropriate places.

So don't think that because someone's dying that they're not still maybe hearing you. So don't talk in third person, but really think about the person is still living until they're not. But to think ahead to this and it actually can be very empowering. It may seem like, "Oh, I don't want to go there." I'm not suggesting you have to do all this in one setting, but helpful things to think about and how do you want people to treat you? "Not talking in third person, I want people to be there." Who are the people that you would like to be there? Do you want, if possible, music? Do you want to be near a window? Would you like to die at home, if possible? Many people say they want to die at home, smaller percentage actually are able to. But again, it's really important to think about. And what do I want my loved ones to know about me? And that gets into the issue of thinking about what are called legacy letters or often called ethical wills. Do you want me to mention that now?

Ben Smith:

Yeah. Yeah. We got a lot of questions about that, Dorian, so we'll put a pin on it for a few more minutes.

Dorian Mintzer:

Okay.

Curtis Worcester:

No, that was really helpful though, Dorian. I appreciate you going through those wishes and I think it's just important to get those conversations going. And I think that's the whole purpose of this episode too is... But I want to keep going on the conversation on end of life planning for a second. And I know this is something that is a part of end of life planning, which people may or may not like to talk about, but the funeral or burial arrangements. Again, this is a topic that people often find difficult to approach and then maybe never address for themselves. So arranging your own funeral can be seen as both practical and an emotional decision. So can you just talk through some of the key points that individuals should keep in mind when planning their own funeral, and just talk about how can taking charge of these arrangements contribute to a sense of peace and ensure that your wishes are respected.

Dorian Mintzer:

Sure. Again, really good questions. Some people are wanting to do that, some not. It's tied into what I said before, there's so much we can't control. So what are the things you can control? And planning your own funeral or burial can be part of it. I know many people who have gone through the exercise of doing it. There's one woman in particular I'm thinking of who was in her early 80s and it was such an empowerment and act of creating peacefulness, as you're saying, Curtis, for her. She really thought through. She doesn't have children, she is divorced, so she's single, is what's called a solo ager. And so she really set up what she wants, how she wants it, what music she wants, who she wants to speak at her funeral. She has a cousin of hers who's agreed to take charge of it. She's contacted a funeral parlor. Really set that up, paid for it ahead of time. Set up with some nephews to be... One's a power of attorney for the finances. And another one healthcare proxy. Went through all of these things.

And I can just share what she has shared with me, that it just gave her a sense of peace to do it because she didn't want it to be a burden on people. It's helpful to think about. I know in my own situation, I'm in my late 70s, my husband is in his early 90s and we have bought a burial plot and we still ourselves go back and forth between a burial or cremation. So we can use it for either. And we wanted our son to also have the opportunity. And it is really helpful to think that starting at age 18, people should have these advanced directives, living wills, things like that because after 18 you're considered an adult and people can't even access your medical records without knowing it.

What was interesting in his situation, it's just a funny story to share, that we ended up getting plots in our community. Did a lot of checking around and got a plot in our community. We have to be residents. And usually they want either a mortgage or a rental or something showing that you really are a resident. How can a kid who's still in school have that? So he had to have the various schools he was at saying that was always his permanent address for him to be able to get it.

Hopefully it's a long time till we need to do it, but there is a nice sense of doing that if you're so thinking about it. Some people actually find it a really helpful exercise to write your own obituary and to think about how do you want to be remembered. I know I personally love those obituaries that I read. I happen to love reading obituaries because it's the stories of people's lives. And you have an opportunity to really think about how do you want to be remembered. And you can write it, you can have relatives or friends or whatever look at it, but it really is helpful to do that if you're so inclined. It's no right and wrong way and you can change it, so.

Ben Smith:

[inaudible 00:26:35] Dorian, I know just me personally, you can just... Especially the obituaries where you read it and it just makes you smile. It's like you read it and you see the sense of humor, you see the flavor in it. You can tell there's inside jokes going on happening. I think that's the interesting part is obviously a funeral is a sad event because we're mourning those that we've lost and you're thinking about those memories and the finality of it. But there's a flip side of that coin too, and the celebration of life is, "Hey, we're celebrating this together and we're celebrating what we experienced together." And I know it's come to a conclusion, but having a I think glass half full approach versus the half empty is... You get that with the obituary, with the funeral.

I think that's a really important topic, which I know we want to dig in a little bit more on is... Because especially, as you mentioned, the concept [inaudible 00:27:30] legacy planning. It goes beyond this whole estate planning and writing wills, about how do I want to be remembered and that lasting impact that want to leave behind. So I don't know, for me it feels like this legacy planning concept is... It feels a bit newer of, "Hey, I'm now thinking about the impact I've made, the mark I've left, how people think of me when I'm not there." So I just would love to hear about some of your insights about how... If I am thinking about legacy planning, it could be legacy letters that you talked about or charitable contributions or other ways to ensure that my values and my memories live on, what are some insights you have about how people have approached that?

Dorian Mintzer:

Yeah, I'll do that in one minute, but if it's okay, I want to just comment on something you just said about the celebration of life. And I think different cultures and religions have different traditions about it. I know some people, again, there's a difference on if you know you're dying, you have a long-term illness or something versus if something happens quickly. But what some people have done, because some people actually... There's a what's called gallows humor. That humor is really important. And some have said, "I don't want to miss my funeral. I want to hear what people want to say about me."

Ben Smith:

Sure. Yeah.

Dorian Mintzer:

So it's really nice sometimes to have a big party while you're still alive and invite people and say, "This is my preparation. I want to hear what people would say if it were my funeral." I know it may seem strange, but I know some people who have done that and it's just been quite lovely. So I just wanted to add that part.

Ben Smith:

That's great, yeah.

Dorian Mintzer:

So there's so many different ways of thinking about what's important to you and how you want to be remembered. And I think we all want to be remembered in big ways or small ways. And no question, people often think about legacy as financial [inaudible 00:29:31] contributions, and that's certainly one piece of it. But if you think about it, we really are living our legacy every day if you can let yourself think about it and be conscious of that. The way you smile at people, the saying hello, the going out of your way for friends or family members. That can all be part of your value, your legacy. And what I encourage people to do to think about when you begin thinking about how do you want to be remembered, to think about what are maybe three to five things you're really proud of throughout your life, why? This can get you thinking about it.

Legacy letters and one can google legacy letters and there's suggestions and templates for how to do it if you have trouble writing. Sometimes we now have opportunities on the internet or the phone to record. So you can just talk about some of the family stories. Maybe think about what were some of the family stories you so treasured and what are some of the things that will get lost if you don't start sharing them. And it could be in the form of letters. People now are doing oral histories, just recording things. Video histories. It's a great family thing to do it if there's a family get-together. Or if you don't have family, you can ask neighbors or nieces or nephews or friends to record you, to ask you questions, or you give them suggestions of questions that you want so that you are thinking about what's been important to me, what are my values? What would I like to hope for you to know about me? So there's a sense of continuity of generations.

There's also a really wonderful program. I guess it's called a program. It's called Storyworth. S-T-O-R-Y-worth if people can google that. It's not very expensive. And you can sign up and over the course of a year you get prompts every week to write a little story. And you can look at the questions, you can pick questions that they have. You can write your own questions. You can submit pictures. And at the end of the year, it's put together in a book and you get a copy and then you can purchase some additional ones. And that's a wonderful way.

There's a lot of emphasis on memoir writing. I know in the Jewish tradition there's something called ethical wills, and that's now part of many different traditions. You can google in their books on how to write ethical wills. But it's really starting with telling a story. What's important to you? What are your values? Some people like to write sort of a more general to everybody. "These are the things I'd like you to know. This is what's important to me. These are some of the values or the causes that I hope will be important to you." Some people like to write individual letters to separate people, to a son or a daughter or a grandchild, or a niece or a nephew or a neighbor or a boss that you've had, or somebody that you've supervised. It doesn't have to be a biological connection. But it's an opportunity to share your gratitude, to share your values, to share what's important to you. And I think that it's a really helpful thing to do.

There's actually another book... I love books. So there's another book by Stephen Levine called The Year to Live. This was somebody who was told he had a year to live, and then he lived actually 16 years beyond that, he's not alive any longer. But he wrote a book that has every month a task to do, but a lot of it's focused on opening to life and embracing life and sharing your story and meditating and being grateful and forgiving yourself, forgiving others. All of these can be written for people. There's one gentleman I remember working with, and he was dying of pancreatic cancer, and he ended up writing to each of his children and grandchildren and decided while he was still alive to read the letters to them. And it was so moving and important for each of them. And now they have this tangible legacy. They have this letter that he wrote.

Another book that I love is called... It's by a friend of mine Meg Newhouse called Legacies of the Heart: Living a Life That Matters. And she talks about tangible and intangible legacies, and also there can be negative legacies. I think it's helpful for your listeners to think about that of, again, how do you want to be remembered and tangible legacies are so helpful. Letters, stories, memories of people, pulling together photos. There are many, many ways to do this. To write a letter, to have an audio of it, to have a video of it, but to know that people want to remember you and they'd like to remember you in ways that you'd like to be remembered. And they may remember you in some other ways too. But again, the idea of controlling the parts you can. Does that respond to-

Ben Smith:

Absolutely.

Curtis Worcester:

That was fantastic and thank you for sharing that and thank you for... It feels like every question you're providing more and more resources, so it's fantastic for everybody listening.

Dorian Mintzer:

There's one more [inaudible 00:35:00] it's a quote I found that I just... Atul Gawande wrote this book back in I think 2014 called Being Mortal. It's another book I think is really helpful for your listeners. And there's a quote from him, which it says, "Life has meaning because it's a story and stories have endings. A good death honors a life well lived." And I think it's helpful to think about that. Think whether we're talking about an obituary or a legacy letter or an ethical will or the video, your story has meaning to you. It's what gives you your uniqueness. And you're going to live on in other people's hearts, so tell your story.

Curtis Worcester:

I love that. I love that. I do want to keep going a little bit here and naturally transitioning towards the end of life involves not just physical and practical preparations, but also pretty significant emotional and spiritual considerations as well. From your experience, what are some of the key emotional and spiritual aspects that individuals commonly face as they end up approaching death?

Dorian Mintzer:

There are a lot. Let's move back one little step that for some people, religion, institutional religion maybe has been part of their life. And so there's an organizing principle that some people have as they approach the end of life with a sense of what comes after or what their belief system is. And that can be very comforting for people. Some people don't have a religious orientation, but they maybe have a more internal spiritual one, of a sense that I'm one little small piece of this universe, but I'm part of something larger than myself. Some people reach the end of life without having developed either any grounding in any religion or cultural ideas about it or spirituality.

What I find is often people begin, even if you've never been before, people opening a little bit more to spiritual, to wanting to be out in nature more, to realize you're so connected with the trees and the stars and other animals and people, and allow yourself to open to that. I do think what I have found, and I think research supports is if you have some grounding, it helps, but there's so much not knowing. Nobody really knows what happens. There've been many end of life stories, research. Some people have beliefs and that can be comforting, some people don't. But I do think that there's a normal process that happens in life. I don't like to think about it as a a midlife or late life crisis per se, but it's a shift.

And I think it's not unusual to, as we get older, to look in the mirror and say, "Oh my gosh, who am I?" Or if you're in a relationship, who are you? Or what is this all about in this life? And that can lead to maybe opening to getting in touch with the inner life you might not have known you had. Meditation, gratitude, forgiveness, all of these, and there's studies about it, can really be helpful as one approaches end of life. And if you're so lucky to be thinking ahead and planning, it really can give you the opportunity of finishing up unfinished business, tying up loose ends.

There's a question that I really like to ask influenced by a financial planner who is known as really one of the early financial life planners, George Kinder. He has a series of three questions. The last question is when I often pose to clients and pose for myself, and I'll mention it now. I think it's a really helpful question, which is if you went to the doctor and you were told you had 24 to 48 hours to live, what would you wish you had done or said? I really encourage people to think about that because it may be repairing a relationship. It may be something on your bucket list or your curious list or whatever. If you're able to do something, but you don't want to necessarily wait till you only have 24 to 48 hours and then have a whole lot of regrets. The goal is hopefully to live your life so there are less regrets at the end.

But come back to whatever age you are now and to think about what's important to you to say or do. And it sometimes can make people more conscious of the spirituality, the gratefulness, the forgiving of oneself as well as other people. It's really helpful to be able to do that so that you don't reach the end with regrets or that, "I wish I had said something or other." So I don't know. Does that-

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah. No, that's great. And I actually have a follow-up or similar question from a slightly different perspective. So I think a lot of times we see, I know you've shared stories about this from your own experience, that as people approach end of life, they're surrounded by people, whether it's their family, there's caregivers. Again, still going towards these more emotional and spiritual considerations, how can families and caregivers best support someone in this process, as they're addressing these aspects during this very sensitive time? And like you mentioned, it may be new to them. Maybe they're starting to open up to this, the family, the caregivers may not have seen this person think about these things. What advice would you give those people who are around it?

Dorian Mintzer:

Be open to listening and be curious and try to be with that person and encourage the exploration. It can be scary for caregivers and other people, particularly if it's family members who like, "Oh, don't talk about that, mom," or, "Don't talk about that dad." And that shuts them off. And it is helpful I think for people to realize... And people are different in relation. Back when I mentioned about the Five Wishes, some people don't want to know, or at least they say they don't want to know. And sometimes you do have to respect that. Some really want to talk about what's important to them. And even if you haven't talked before about these things, the hope is that you can have these really important conversations and encourage the person to talk about what's important or how they want to be remembered.

And again, what the fears are. Some people are just afraid of not being here. Some people are afraid of just missing out, "How can life go on without me?" And for some people having goals like, "I'm going to wait until the baby's born," or, "I'm going to wait until some graduation or the wedding." Sometimes that really motivates people. Many people, there are such a myriad of feelings. It's a process of letting go and trying to think about what does it mean to not be? It's very hard to imagine that. And many people want to talk about, "I'm more afraid of the dying process. I don't want to be in pain." And that's where it can be helpful to say and to become educated. Somebody may be going through treatment and then there's a point when the treatment is not helping anymore. So you really do know it's the end stage.

And it's important to then become aware or even ahead of time to learn about palliative care, to learn about what hospice can provide. It can be such an important support and can make a difference of people ending up dying in a hospital versus being at home. And encouraging people to really talk about what is a quality of life to you. And it's part of what those five questions get into. I know in my own family, we knew my dad was dying. I always say my father was a very controlling person and I didn't like that mostly. But at the end, he wanted us to talk about these things. And this was about 40 years ago. And my brother and I both flew out west and my brother did not want to talk about it. And I said, "Yes, we will." So we knew his wishes.

And then we also learned from my mother what her wishes were, and it made it so much... And I was her healthcare proxy. She was in a situation where her doctors... She wasn't doing well with her chemo and her doctors just said, "Oh, we can keep her alive. She can be in a nursing home. She can have transfusions every week." It was clear my mother did not want that. So knowing that helped my brother and me to make that kind of decision to then we were able to go behind his back and get hospice. You can't do that anymore, but this was a long time ago. But there are a lot of feelings. And to hear...

Somebody may say, "When I'm on my final thing, do not let so-and-so come visit me. I don't want to see so-and-so or I do want to or..." And that may be when somebody wants to start talking about how I want to be remembered or, "I want this music or that music or please be here and just massage my shoulders or massage my feet." And there can be feelings of fear, there can be feelings of acceptance, resignation. You want to try to, as the caregiver, whether you be related or not related, try to be open to that and allow somebody to share. Even though it may be stirring up all kinds of stuff in you to allow somebody to know their feelings are safe with you.

Ben Smith:

So Dorian, I want to jump in for a moment because you just talked about the relationship of you and your brother and your parents there on end of life. And obviously it's just really tough from a communication perspective where obviously your parents are like, "No, we want to tell you." Then you have your brother saying, "No, I don't want to know." But here you are going, "No, no, we got to know this." And the benefit of it, is like because we communicated to this, we got better outcomes for our parents who we love dearly. It made our lives easier in terms of these very difficult decisions, as you said, of knowing what they would want and not want and then struggling in the moment of I now need to figure out what they would have wanted if no one tells me this.

So talk about the stress around I feel like I'm failing someone as they're passing away that I love dearly and that pressure, the stress, the emotional baggage that gets attached to it, and you're just sitting there feeling like you're failing. I know you just talked about the benefit of it. So I want to go... Okay, so here are the situation of people that either are not communicating their wishes to their loved ones, as you said, they're solo agers and you have people that have loved ones that are trying to take care of them. I'm just talking about how do we broach the conversation where there's difficulty from maybe either party? How do we have this conversation so that we are effectively discussing and documenting wishes with family members? How do we make sure that this conversation's happening to get the benefit of what I just described?

Dorian Mintzer:

A few things and the resources I mentioned earlier could be part. And some people may be able... Like maybe the client that you mentioned at the beginning, she's ripe and ready to say, "I want to have these conversations and we need to sit down and talk about it." A lot of people, it does come later unless there's one person that is able to do it. At the time of death, it's a crisis. It's a major loss. Or when somebody's dying, it's not only the feelings of the person dying, but what it means to be losing a parent or a loved one or whoever it is, a spouse, partner. It's horrific. It's really hard. It's such a stressful time. So the more that things can be talked about ahead of time, it really is helpful because just as you were saying, Ben, people don't know.

So just another, again, personal example. So my mother was my father's healthcare proxy, and he knew he was dying and he knew he was going to be having some surgery. He really didn't want to have the surgery. He ended up having a heart attack when they were out, and there was EMT people, medics right in the parking lot. And back then you didn't have to have a written thing. Now you do. And I didn't mention that about having something on your refrigerator in case ambulances are called. But my mother was able to say, because they asked her, "Should we resuscitate him?" And she said, "No, he does not want it." And so they let him die.

And you can just imagine, had we not been aware of his wishes, there could be all kinds of family dynamics and fighting, "You let him die." It just relieves a lot of that stress if you know what they want. And it's not always simple, it's nuanced. Somebody can say, "Do not resuscitate for any reason," and that's not necessarily always appropriate. And I'll give you an example of there was a bioethicist, Viki Kind who I think still works, has her own website. And she pointed out, and it was just really helpful that... This was a while ago. I remember hearing her say there was this man who said, "Under no circumstances do I want any machines, any anything, just let me go." And that was respected. But it did turn out that in his situation, had he allowed a couple of days with these heroic measures, there really was some treatment that would have enabled him potentially to have some quality of life. So you want to just be a little careful in relation to that.

Another of the stresses that happened, a good friend of mine, she and her husband had their healthcare proxies. He was older, he was sick, they were in another state and she had forgotten to take with her a copy of the healthcare proxy. So she didn't have it with her. And he did not want, given just what was happening in his health situation. But because she didn't have it with her, they were in a place where the protocol was no matter what you try to revive this person. And she still, three years later, blames herself that they weren't able to revive him, but they broke his ribs and they were really trying. And she knew he didn't want that. So she felt so difficult.

And I know learning from that, I keep with me when my husband and I travel our proxies because I know it's important. And I didn't mention this at the beginning, that each state... There is this Five Wishes. There are only a few states where you have to have it notarized or signed by a doctor. In most states it's legal, but there also are just one-page things. Often if you go into the hospital, they have you sign something or just go online in whatever state you're in. You're in Maine, I assume it's probably similar to Massachusetts where I am. Here, it's called MOLS. It's a one-page thing in terms of what you want and what you don't want. And they really encourage that you have that on your refrigerator because if 911's called that's the first place, somebody will look. And if something is not in writing, then they're going to pull all stops and it may not be what your loved one wants.

Again, we can't control everything, but we try to control the parts that we can. But just think about that added stress. And if there are multiple people who all have different relationships with somebody and they all think they know best what mom or dad or whomever wants and needs, all of that infighting can happen. And it's not unusual. If that could be avoided and there's a sense that you've helped those that you love deal with your loss, it can help you let go and die perhaps a little more peacefully to know you've tried your best. Doesn't mean there's not going to be family squabbles about inheritances or this or that or the other, but it could be at least around the end of life issues and wishes.

Ben Smith:

Got it.

Curtis Worcester:

No, that's great. I really appreciate that and I hope our listeners will as well appreciate the tip about the refrigerator because that's massively important. I want to go back to something, I know you spoke about it briefly a little bit ago, but we want to give it its moment in the spotlight, if you will. A part of our exploration into end of life planning, we've learned, and you mentioned it earlier on this episode, some people choose to write their own obituaries. So we want to talk about that for a minute. What are the potential benefits and drawbacks potentially of taking this approach? How can writing your own obituary contribute to a more personalized, meaningful reflection of your life?

Dorian Mintzer:

Writing your obituary relates to a concept that maybe I just said in passing but didn't talk about, which is tied into life review. I do think it's really helpful at different life stages to really reflect on who am I? What things influenced me, what have I done, what am I proud of, what am I not proud of? People can actually take a piece of paper and draw a line in the middle and put your birthdate and let's say 100 or 110, and you can divide it in 10-year segments. And it can be focused on important people in your life. It can be life events that happened in the world or events in your own life that influenced you. It's really interesting to do that kind of life review as you're thinking about the task of completion of this latter stage of life, which is the unfinished business, understanding, coming to maybe peace with the ups and downs and good, bad, and ugly of one's life.

The same can be part of writing an obituary. It's another opportunity of telling your story or how you would like to be remembered. And you can do it with somebody else. But it again can be that act of reflecting and saying, "These are things that I'd like people who need about me to know about me. This is important to me." I want to bring up one other thing about the downside. It's not even the downside of... I have not seen downsides of people writing their obituary. A downsize I am aware of, which I just find so troubling to be honest, is some people really want to totally control from the grave. And we know [inaudible 00:54:29] people do that in terms of inheritance and stuff.

But I know a few situations, and I'm sure there are more, but these are just ones I know of where the dying partner said, "I don't want anyone to know I died. I do not want an obituary." It can be devastating because then the surviving people don't have the opportunity of people to reach out to them and provide love and support. I know in a couple of situations where people have honored that, and to this day, many years later, there's no obituary. And you google the person's name and it's as though they're still alive. There's this awkwardness. Like you hear from the grapevine, "Oh, so-and-so's not here." You deny the survivor the love and support that somebody needs.

And I know also some whose promise and say, "Yes, I won't," and then go ahead and do it. Because they just know again that you just need to do what feels right for you or maybe other members of the family, because it's not just a partner or spouse or whatever. There can be kids, there can be people in the community who want to have their own opportunity to finish, maybe write a thank-you note about how wonderful that person was to them. So I really encourage people. It doesn't mean you have to write your own, although I think it can be a really interesting exercise and very, very helpful for some people. Don't get stressed out by it though. If it feels like, "Oh my God, I don't want to think about" that fine.

Maybe sit down and have a little dialogue with somebody else and say, "these are the points I'd like you to do." And maybe even have somebody write a draft with you or not. But you might want just a little inputs in relation to it. People who've done it, I know they've liked it, but do think about what it means to say, I don't want one. It's the person dying, but it's also the caregivers, the people who love them, the people who maybe they've touched in terms of whatever their professional role is. People want to celebrate life, like what you had said earlier, Ben, and to provide support to people left.

Ben Smith:

So Dorian, I want to add there, and I know obviously obituaries I think have been the... As long as with newspapers, is that obituaries have been in the newspaper and I think that's how we've been communicating births and deaths. That's how people have been informed is through that. It feels like obviously with technology and the adoption of technology and things evolve, that has evolved too. I'm just thinking of a couple of guests that we've had on, and one, Matt Moran who was... He was stage four kidney cancer when he came on and he started a podcast blog about living with kidney cancer. And he talked about other guests that are cancer survivors and how they reinvented themselves and found this.

And another gentleman, Chris Gathers, who had brain cancer. Young, very young, in his forties, and he just turned his life around. But he said, "I'm worried I might only have six months to live." So he went for a walk every day recording a message to his two girls. "Here's something I want to tell my girls because if I'm not here in six months in a day, I want them to have enough of my life lessons and things I want to say to them so that there's a legacy of things that I've learned in my life I want them to learn as they grow up and they can revisit my messages."

So you start listening to those things and Curtis and I going, "Hey, here's things that..." As financial planners, these are very private. As you said, taboo is money, sex, and death. We can't talk about what we're talking about with our clients. Privacy and confidentiality going on. So nobody knows what we do and what we talk about and all this, for us, for our legacy of, here's things of this conversation with you today of, "Hey, these are the things that we care about and these are the stories that we're hearing from the people we love and we serve, and here's what we're concerned about." And we do that enough to talk to Dorian today about these things. I'm building up to a question here.

So about this different angle of basically my legacy is you have Ancestry.com, have genealogy where we'd study. Well, geez, Dorian was a psychologist and she was a retirement coach, and Ben and Curtis were financial planners and they did these things. That's great that, "Look at what they must've lived through and these life events." So they have to assume is, "Hey, here's the genealogy and here's the stories." It feels like now able to add the storytelling, is that easily with a video and a YouTube or... We can now record messages that can go forward. I don't know where that goes forward, but. I guess my question to you, Dorian, is obviously legacy letters are one thing, but how do you think technology is influencing the documentation of our own stories for future generations? How is this evolving and changing very quickly in what you see?

Dorian Mintzer:

That's an interesting question. I do want to mention tied into what you're talking about, another book, that's okay, it's called Life Is in the Transitions: Mastering Change at Any Age. It's by Bruce Feiler, F-E-I-L-E-R. He talks about life disruptors, life quakes, and talks about the part that I believe as a clinician we can't change past events, but we can work through them and have a new story hopefully going forward. Somehow what you were saying just made me want to share that. Yes, in the 21st century, a lot is changing, a lot of technology. People now have digital pictures instead of the old photos and stuff and people taking time to do that. I think a lot of people have really found 23andMe and Ancestry.com interesting of learning more about where we come from, the influence of culture, countries, and all of that.

I know many people who've gone through that and it's been learning something new or just confirmation of what they've known about themselves. But I think it's true, like the Storyworth. I mentioned I think the legacy letters, writing memoirs, having oral histories. One of the things that I hear so often from people is, "I don't have her voice anymore" or, "I don't have enough pictures" or, "I don't have things at the end" or, "I don't want to remember her or him in the last final days. I want to remember before." Again, we can't control everything, but you have an opportunity and it can be a gift and it is a gift. It's an act of love to take some time and maybe invite others to help you record the story.

Because when you're gone, some of these stories won't be here and they won't be able to be part of future generations. I do think we're going to see more and more of that. I think there's been a whole lot more emphasis put on audio recording, oral history, written history, video, all of that. So I think technology is a plus in relation to it. I think technology can be somewhat, or the internet can be somewhat bittersweet. I think sometimes once somebody's diagnosed with something, I see this happen that you can google it and it may be helpful, but it can also be really detrimental because you hear all these different stories and you need to pick and choose. But be your own advocate.

Another book that I totally love is by Ellen Langer called The Mind Body: Thinking Our Way to Chronic Health, and she really talks about really how we think about things. She focuses a lot on mindfulness, on we don't know everything. We can't know everything. We have to based on what we know, make the best decision we can of how we want to approach this life stage. And so we just do the best we can and then you make the decision [inaudible 01:03:06], rather than second guessing yourself. So I think that can be part of the saying, "Hopefully I have many, many tomorrows, but I want to sit down today" and just say with an I statement, "I'd like to talk about."

I suggest to people avoid you statements like, "You need to" or, "You must." You statements, even if you don't intend it, are blaming and shaming. The I statements are inviting. "I'm thinking, I'm feeling, please do this for me. I know it may be hard for you, but I need to know that you know some of what I'm thinking. And I want to hear what you're feeling." And it can be a chance of repairing relationships, of just talking through maybe some of the difficult times between yourself and whoever the person is who's dying.

I do remember when I did that question about you have 24, 48 hours to live, I gave a keynote at a financial conference and this lovely gentleman came up and said, "I can't get that question out of my mind. I have a not good relationship with my middle son. And when I get home, I am going to start working on that." There's reciprocity in this. Maybe the unfinished business is talking about the hurts and the pain and needing the forgiveness and needing to forgive yourself for not being perfect and forgiving others."

Another book, I guess I just love books, is by a doctor called Ira Byock, B-Y-O-C, Byock, the Four Things That Matter Most. And he talks about four things that are so important if possible to say. One is please forgive me, I forgive you, thank you, and I love you. If you think about it, those are four simple kind of things, but it's part of the caring if you can, with the idea if possible, we want to approach the end without regrets. Don't wait till the end if possible. If you're at the end now, by all means please think about these things, but the earlier, the better to just realize we're all going to die, and so seize the day as they say. Be present, be open. Think consciously about living your legacy, of being the kind of person you want to be now and forward, whether you have a chronic illness, terminal illness, or you're perfectly healthy.

Ben Smith:

Love that.

Curtis Worcester:

That's great Dorian. So I have one final question for you. Before I ask it, I do want to say thank you. This entire conversation has been tremendously helpful. I know for Ben and myself and all our listeners, I think there's great value here and I really appreciate it. Our last question is a little different than the ones we've been firing at you, so I know... So we're here on the Retirement Success in Maine Podcast. One question I love to ask every guest is about your own retirement. So I want to ask, how are you going to find your own personal retirement success?

Dorian Mintzer:

It's a hard question because again, the whole concept of retirement is changing. As I said, here I am, I'm 78 years old and I'm still working and I envision wanting to work. One of the things for me that helps me feel successful in my life is I view my work as portfolio. So I do therapy, I do coaching, I do writing, I do speaking, I do podcasts, and I know one needs to let go of things in order to have more space for other things. So that's part of the process. I had been prior to the pandemic working more part-time, and then my practice got very, very busy during the pandemic, so I'm now easing back somewhat in relation to it.

So I think my retirement success will probably be a combination of doing and being of another book that I love, Connie Zweig, it's called The Inner Work of Age: Shifting from Role to Soul. I really love that book and I think it's part of how I view retirement. I want to work. I love what I do. I get energized by it. I don't have any total stopping it in sight at some... But I do want to open more space to do some other things. So for me, a successful retirement is the doing and the amounts that feel comfortable, but also just being. I just love being outside with nature. We have a relatively new puppy, which has been quite the experience after having had another dog that was puppy staged to 14 years and died. We forgot 14 years older now what the puppy stage is like, but certainly humbles you and gets you outside. Just being alive.

So I don't envision if a full retirement, I envision for as long as I can and when it feels like I can still be helpful to people, I want to feel like I have an impact. Maybe it might be less one-on-one and more just workshops and groups. Maybe in time, that'll change. I honestly think about, again, a dear friend of mine who's almost 92. Oh, she is 92 actually. She says meaningful work paid her unpaid through one's last breath, and I think I feel that way, that I want to be engaged, I want to be connected. I always say connection, engagement, and purpose, and meaning. I want that to be part of my life. So I'm hoping maybe my puppy will become a therapy dog or a hospice visitor.

So allowing myself to think about morphing, using my skills in different ways. I really do want to stay connected and vital, and I think I will age better. I know I will age better. I see that in people I know. So encourage that with your listeners too. Just think about your beautiful example of those couple of guests you had starting a blog, maybe doing volunteer work. Bruce Feiler, who I mentioned, when he was young, ended up, and he talks about it in his book, Life Is in the Transitions, that he had a very rare bone cancer and he had these two young identical twin daughters. He enlisted his friends and got them all together. He calls it the Council of Dads, and I think there's actually a Netflix or on it. He got each friend to agree to be there in a specific way for his daughters if he ended up dying. Now, luckily, he's alive and well and writing more books and all of that, but-

Ben Smith:

That's a great thought.

Dorian Mintzer:

There are creative ways of just being connected to people and just think about it. Work gives connection, engagement, purpose and meaning, a reason to get out of bed in the morning, self-esteem, camaraderie, a sense you have some agency, some effect, meaningful relationships. Build that into your life post-retirement. Maybe still working, it may be volunteering, it may be being with grandchildren, nieces, great-grandchildren, trying to live as fully as you can with whatever limitations you have. That does happen.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah.

Ben Smith:

That's great advice and I think that's a great way to end the show. Again, as Curtis said, we can't thank enough for coming on with us. We really value your expertise and all you shared with us today. I know our listeners will too. But thank you so much for coming on and we'd love to catch up with you down the road because you have so much to share, so appreciate your time today.

Dorian Mintzer:

Thank you. I love helping people talk about this, so thank you.

Ben Smith:

All right, take care. Thanks everybody for tuning into our show today. Again, end of life planning, and what should we know? I know Dorian did a really great job on that today. A lot of links that we're going to share in the show notes that will all be there. You can go to blog.guidancepointllc.com/98, because we're episode 98, you're going to find all that there. And if you want to get in contact with Dorian, her information will be there as well. We really appreciate you tuning in today and in this journey. I know this is a hard concept to dig into, so hopefully you got something out of our conversation with Dorian, and if you need anything, just drop us a line, but appreciate you tuning in and we'll catch you next time.