Transcript:

Ben Smith:

Welcome, everyone, to The Retirement Success in Maine Podcast. My name is Ben Smith. Allow me to introduce my co-host, the maple syrup to my blueberry jam, Curtis Worcester. How you doing today, Curtis?

Curtis Worcester:

I'm doing well, Ben. Doing well. How are you?

Ben Smith:

Yeah. I'm well. We just got back from Disney, so I'm rocking my Mickey Trick or Treat Halloween Cup.

Curtis Worcester:

All right.

Ben Smith:

Yes, it's fall, so when you guys are hearing this in the audience, we're probably be past Halloween, maybe moving on towards the Thanksgiving. But for us in real time land, it's still getting to be Halloween season. So, we wanted to talk, we've been doing a few episodes here. We actually just talked special needs trusts, and those are looking out for their kiddos that maybe have some specific challenges. We've been digging into a little bit more practicality pieces. And our conversations with our clients, talking about experiencing life is, hey, everyone's feeling a little down right now. Our retirement accounts are down. There's elections, which I know stir up a lot of emotions in people. And I know we want to kind of lean the other way. We want to, let's get into some positivity.

So, we were reading an article the other day, Curtis, you and I, and it was from the Huffington Post. And it was actually republished of an article from the collective evolution entitled The Top Five Regrets of the Dying. So, delving further into how regrets exist in our lives today, but are suppressed until the promise of life no longer exists. So, the premise is we each have the power to make changes in our lives now so that we can live the life we truly want without doubts or judgments or regrets. So, it was interesting, I want to read them to you. The top five regrets is noted in the article. So number one, I wish I'd had the courage to live a life true to myself, not the life others expected of me. Two, I wish I hadn't worked so hard. Three, I wish I'd had the courage to express my feelings. Four, I wish I'd stayed in touch with my friends. And fifth, this is the heartbreaker, I wish I had let myself be happier.

So, that regret, that's the one that we feel has the most opportunity for introspection and growth that can really lead to greater joy and fulfillment in our lives. Especially like this is the goal of our show is, hey, I'm going to retire. This is the time for introspection. This is the time to really lean into growing and finding purpose. So, that's the one we really feel has a lot of that resonates really with our audience and those that we're looking to help. But when we ask ourselves, we do this with our clients, we ask them, are we happy? And of course, we all say yes. We all kind of say that. But are there places in our lives that could be better, that could make our lives happier if we have the courage to express our desires to our loved ones, but also to ourselves? Will we allow ourselves to seek out and explore the areas that might bring us the most joy? That's what this episode's about, giving yourself permission to experience joy in retirement.

Curtis Worcester:

That's right. And obviously our theme on this show, Ben, is we like to go out and find guests and experts in the area or topic of conversation. So, we continued that today. So, our next guest is a resilience coach and workplace mental health strategist. She's also a TEDx speaker and a published author of a memoir entitled, Breaking Into My Life. Our guest goes first and sees herself as the bridge that helps people get comfortable with their mental state so that they reach out and get the support they need before they hit a crisis. She makes it okay to not be okay and thrives on making real difference in the lives of others, especially around their wellbeing. After years of playing the role of child caregiver to her bipolar mother, our guest embarked on her own healing journey of self discovery.

She also knows firsthand what it feels like to struggle with a mental illness after experiencing her own depression due to a divorce. Michelle went on to spend years working to eradicate the mental health stigma within her own workplace by elevating empathy and compassion, causing more open conversations and leading real change in how mental illness is understood. She was instrumental in building the largest and fastest growing employee mental health employee resource group while at her Fortune 500 company. Her signature resilience workshop has made a positive impact on thousands of employees throughout COVID-19. In her practice, she works with people to help them reclaim balance and their power to create better structures and routines, that help them feel better and in control of their overall emotional wellbeing. So, with that, I would love to welcome Michelle Dickinson to The Retirement Success in Maine Podcast. Michelle, thank you so much for coming on our show today.

Michelle Dickinson:

Thank you for having me, Curtis. Thanks for inviting me, Ben. I'm thrilled to be here with you guys today.

Ben Smith:

Well, awesome. And Michelle, I know there's lots of things we want to talk about here today with you, and again, especially this kind of giving ourselves permission to feel joy, to experience that. But we always want to hear a little bit about you as our expert and get to know you a little bit. So, we'd love to hear about your background. I know Curtis gave us a little bit of a read in terms of your bio story, but I'd love to hear especially around how experiencing care taking for your mom has influenced your life and career passion.

Michelle Dickinson:

It's so interesting because I was just working a corporate job minding my own business, and I was invited to give a TED Talk about the experience that I had as a child growing up with my mom. And that shifted everything for me. Because when you love someone with a mental illness, it's not something you really talk about. And I grew up, let's see, I guess I can name my age. I'm 50. So, I grew up in a period of time when the stigma was exacerbated. So, we absolutely did not disclose and talk about my mom's illness. And I actually felt like, okay, well, I did okay. I turned out to be okay. I'm a contributing member of society with a good job. I think I came out okay. But then I had a colleague find out about my story, and so I was nominated to give a TED Talk.

And that literally shifted everything for me, just because I realized the power of storytelling and how it can create this bridge of relatedness with other people. And I just was really connected to wanting to help. I mean, I think the biggest thing that my mother's illness taught me was to have compassion and understanding for people who are struggling. So, that shifted everything for me. And I went on to write my memoir, and then I went on to help build the mental health ERG when I was at my company. And then I just made the decision that I wanted to be largely a part of the solution when it comes to raising awareness and really making a difference with this in the workplace and beyond. So, I left my corporate job, became an entrepreneur. Had no idea what I was doing, started my business, and the rest is history. It's been about two plus years now, and I get to work with educators, corporate people, folks from all walks of life, and boosting resilience, and shifting their relationship to mental health.

Curtis Worcester:

That's awesome. And obviously, so in your practice today, you just said it, you work with people to help them reclaim that balance and their power and create better structures and routines to help them feel better and better in control of their overall emotional wellbeing. So, with that said, I want to shift it or keep the conversation on you still, and was there a point in your life where you felt like you needed that kind of coaching yourself? And why do you think this is an area that so many people really don't balance that well?

Michelle Dickinson:

I think people step over their emotional wellbeing until they hit a point where they absolutely can't ignore it. And I think the one thing that I learned through going through my own depression was, there were things that I could have been doing all along that could have prevented me from ultimately being diagnosed with depression. And so, that's where I sort of saw the magic, because I said to myself, my goodness, because being an entrepreneur is nothing but highs and lows, I will tell you. So, being that I had been diagnosed with depression, it was during my divorce. I'm thrust into being an entrepreneur pretty much on my own, a lot of isolation. So, I leaned into some of the things that I learned during my getting clinical support from an amazing therapist.

And then I did a lot of Tony Robbins, I did a lot of Landmark, I did a lot of self discovery work that had me really understand me and what I needed for myself. So, I said, my goodness, if this has helped me stay out of depression, I think I need to turn around and share this with people so they realize they don't have to just sit there and then wait for the crisis to hit, that there are things they could be doing every day that could actually preserve their mental health.

Ben Smith:

Love that. And I know, Michelle, again, we're going to dig into more of that parallel that you have to, again, the topic we have today. But we'll always like to ask our guests, especially where the name of the show being Retirement Success in Maine, any connections to us in the State of Maine at all?

Michelle Dickinson:

Well, I have a very dear friend who moved from New Jersey up to Maine. I have a childhood friend who lives in Maine. And I love your blueberries.

Curtis Worcester:

All right, you got it. Perfect.

Ben Smith:

When I said blueberry jam, you're all about that.

Curtis Worcester:

All right.

Michelle Dickinson:

It was.

Curtis Worcester:

All right. That's awesome. That's awesome. So, obviously, Ben, just set it up. We want to, obviously the topic today or the through thread we want to talk about is kind of giving ourselves permission to experience joy in retirement. So, I think I want to start with... I think Ben mentioned it in the intro too, if we were all to ask ourselves the question whether we're happy or not, I think most of us would go, of course, I'm happy. But I think you know this as well as anyone, that being happy is not really a binary feeling. So, how can we go about measuring how happy we actually are?

Michelle Dickinson:

This is such a good question, and actually one that I started to realize I needed to be asking my coaching clients, and even in my workshop. So, I have this little joy meter that I do with them, and I asked them the simple question, reflect back on a time that in your life that you remember experiencing the most joy. And then write three adjectives that describe that. And now, right now, assess what is your level of joy. Is it high? Is it medium? Is it low? And what adjectives would you use to describe that? And so, knowing that you've once experienced joy and had a period of your life where you had it, compare it to where you are now. And is there a disparity? Because if there is, then maybe there's an opportunity for you to change some of the things that you're doing to get back to that space of joy, because you had it. So, if you had it, why can't you have it again?

Curtis Worcester:

I like that. I like that.

Ben Smith:

So, Michelle, I know, and I love that because again, I think with us where we're trying to align money to things that better our lives and maybe increase joy in our lives, again, is asking our clients and our friends and the people we help to do that assessment. And they're really not maybe capable of doing that assessment. So, sometimes the work we're doing and the questions we're asking, sometimes maybe we're not asking or positioning that appropriately, which I like that joy meter as a way to assess and a way to get them to find that meter and the relatability of where they are to where they want to be. So, I want to ask a question about experiencing. Of course, in retirement, a lot of people are in a relationship there too.

And Curtis and I used as example in our shows a few times, and one of our shows was a couple where the husband wanted to be a pilot, because that was the thing that he always wanted to do in his life. And the wife said, geez, you never told me that, but you never told me this, that you always wanted to do that. So, that kind of set off on a path for him. But I guess what my point of bringing that up is, when we compare ourselves in terms of that joy meter to our partner, we might be differently rating ourselves, is they might be at their level of joy to the point of their most joy ever, and the other might not be.

So, how do we resolve this so that both members of that relationship are experiencing joy more evenly? And it feels just the observation we have is sometimes there's this, well, if I say what I want, that might detract you, my partner from something you want. So, they have this invisible, noncommunicative barrier that's happening where I don't want to say this because that's going to mean that you can't do your thing. And now we just never talk and get stuck. So, my question here is, how do you resolve the relationship piece and retirement around joy?

Michelle Dickinson:

It's so interesting. I think our society has taught us a few things. And you would know this in the field that you're. It's taught us to be disciplined. And discipline has gotten so many people to a great place. So, why would they ever think about not being disciplined? So, you're sort of asking them to relax their discipline and just enjoy their life. And the other thing is this either or mentality, that if this, then I can't have that. And so, I think one of the greatest things that I learned through my self discovery journey is that it's possible to have it all. It's possible that it doesn't have to be either or, it could be both. So, coming at life from a space of possibility, what's possible, what's really possible, and permission to dream and step away from maybe being so disciplined.

And also, a lot of times the underlying issue with so many people is fear. So, you really have to get to the heart of where the fear comes from, because fear oftentimes is what stops so many of us. And on the surface, it might appear very differently than it actually is, because underneath is really all about, well, I'm afraid, I'm fearful. What if this happens? The worst could happen and we got to be prepared.

Ben Smith:

So, Michelle, I want to combine three things that you just said. You had three threads and I think they weave together so well. One is, again, having the discipline, especially when the clients that we have is they've been so disciplined to save, and they've been taught that here I came from where my family didn't have money and I was taught if you have discipline and you save, you will amass a certain amount of money. And so, there's that, is this discipline of I got to build towards something and that something allows me to not work. That's all it does. It allows me to not work and that's the goal. But two is, but also I have a fear, which we are talking to our clients every day right now, market's dropping, people are upset, they've lost money. Every day there's a dollar that's come out of their account because it looks like they've lost money, that represents heightened fear of going backwards and that they have to go back to work. They can't stop working, they have to do all... So, they're going backwards in this.

And those are the things when you kind of dig into it, those are the things they're saying, that's why they'd have, in their minds, there's arbitrary numbers of this number represent safety, even if it does or does not. That's what we prove is whether it does or does not. But that's in their heads all the time of that's why I can't do what you're telling me to do of like, live for today, guys. It's okay. You can do some things today. You can still spend from your accounts. So, again, I wanted to point those three things out from what we're seeing on a daily basis, especially right now, it's so heightened from that. So, I think you made some really astute observations.

Michelle Dickinson:

And I also think that paralysis, I think that what we focus on tends to expand. So, the one thing I'm always reminding my clients about is energy goes where our attention is focused. If we're focusing on something, we're going to just throw more energy at it, it's going to become bigger and bigger and bigger. I mean, I would invite people to be thinking about the bigger picture of other things that matter in your life so that you're not so acutely focused on one thing, like you're saying, like the market. I get it, it's scary, it's uncertain, whatever. But I bet if you look around, you got plenty of love and abundance that's right in front of you, but you're just choosing to focus on the area because that's what the mind wants to do. The mind doesn't want to make you happy, the mind wants to protect you. So, we have to make an effort to really get present to all that love and that abundance that we already do have.

Curtis Worcester:

I like that. So, that kind of goes right into my next question for you. So, when we sit down with our clients or with prospects, whatever, when really it's the first time we've kind of talked to someone, we obviously talk about money and finding a purpose for that money and happiness and all of that. So, I think a question we usually ask is, how are you going to fill your time that gives you purpose and enjoyment? You've made it this far, you're retired now, day one, what are you going to do? You have all this time now. And I think the answers that we receive sometimes make it feel like our clients or whoever we're talking to don't give themselves permission to be happy. It's like I'm here, I don't know. I made it here. That was the goal, whatever it is. So, I guess why do you think that's the case?

Michelle Dickinson:

Yeah. I think it goes back to being groomed to be disciplined. I feel like the younger generations are really getting present to having it all. They want it all. People might judge them for being too much, but I think it's wonderful because I don't want to get to retirement and be like, now what? I mean, I think innately though, we all have those things inside of us that we crave and want to do and want to experience. And I think it just takes a little work pulling that out of us. So, getting connected to what lights you up, what's exciting for you, what's something that you always wanted to do? And I personally am not intending to wait until I'm in retirement. I'm trying to constantly figure out how do I make some of this stuff happen while I'm not retired.

So, I think we have to do the work. We have to do the exercise to say, what lights us up? What brings us the most joy? What is it that you could do that you could do for hours, not be tired and actually get energy from it? And it's possible. It's just we've been in such a rat race of a career that that's always been pushed aside. We've been a little bit detached from it, and I think now is a good time to say, all right, let's look in the mirror. What is it that I always wanted to do that lights me up?

Curtis Worcester:

That's great.

Ben Smith:

So, Michelle, our questions, the answer seem to kind of follow each other right here. Because again, you were kind of teeing up this point of not living for today. And again, I know one of the things that we just see all the time is that even just ourselves, is that we look at being happy someday. The discipline today of I need to do these things, but I can maybe put off being happy, being joyful to that day when I've lost 10 pounds, when I've retired, when I paid off my house, then I can have the thing. When I get that promotion, I'll have more money and now I have more money, I can go travel. But by the way, no one tells you that with a promotion came more responsibility and less PTO, not more. Or I need to find the relationship that love of my life, and then the thing solves itself.

And I will say that's something I try to work on too, is living more for today. And unfortunately, we see this too much as Curtis and I with some of our clients, even the ones that go, I'm ready to live for today. I have amasses and I've put off all this to this someday and today's the day. And then we had a client that had cancer and 12 months later he's gone. Or someone was depressed and then they took their life. Things happen and things change. And you kind of go, if we had maybe done more work on ourselves today, then maybe we'd be in better position even tomorrow, even if it's with less resources. So, I guess my question is why aren't you seeing... I know the discipline and I know what you're saying here is, but it feels like, I think the generation that's 50, 60, 70 today, they're being disciplined.

But now you have the next generation that's living more for today. What is this where, was it both sets of parents that our parents coming from the depression era are the ones that have taught us to be disciplined, but now we're kind of regretting being so disciplined, so we're teaching our kind of next generation to live for today? What's happening?

Michelle Dickinson:

It's so interesting. I honestly believe, and I've been on my own sort of journey, I will say throughout starting my company and stuff. It's been such a huge learning for me from a very strategic level, but also from a very inner evolution. We have nothing but the present moment, but yet we're always looking for what it is out there that one day, like you just said, when I'm thinner, when I have the perfect relationship, if we're constantly waiting for that, then we're missing the present moment. And if we're not getting present to what we have and we're not connecting to ourselves, then we're putting a lot on the out there that we may or may not have control over. So, one of the things I'm always telling my clients to do is, you got to slow down, get present, do the meditation, connect with yourself.

A lot of people don't want to hear that, but I'm telling you, it is the greatest thing you can do to connect to yourself. And if you don't know what your joy is, try sitting in silence and just getting connected to yourself. When we look externally, like our society has taught us for the things that bring us joy and fulfillment, we're setting ourselves up for disaster. And when we hang our hat on the someday, we know that there's no actual someday on the calendar. I mean, you're losing the present moment. You're losing the opportunity to really connect with yourself, find out what brings you joy, be happy in the moment, not necessarily only when you get to the destination. And that's going to bring more fulfillment in your life. So, big advocate over here for meditating, and I've gotten even more connected to myself and my own idiosyncrasies through meditation to help me really evolve. And I recommend that highly.

Ben Smith:

And Michelle, I guess what I also hear you say is going back to this thing is not binary. It's not fully disciplined, no joy. Because I think if I am sitting in the shoes of, I won't give myself permission, I am pointing to the people that, well, those are the people that had no discipline and then they have no money. And I don't have the resources to do the things that I can do now because I was. Even though they experience all the, it's the squirrel getting ready for winter and gathering the nuts versus eating them binary, is those are two complete opposites is, well, you do have to eat today, by the way, so that you can continue to live for tomorrow to get through the winter. You can't just not eat at all to then store all these nuts. So, I hear you kind of going there is you got to be having an eye on both.

Michelle Dickinson:

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, again, it goes back to the either or. It doesn't have to be either or, it can be both. I'm going to enjoy the moment, I'm going to make sure that I'm getting present to the good that's in front of me and I'm going to plan, I'm going to be responsible. So, yeah, for sure.

Curtis Worcester:

No, that's great. And so, the next question is, I think it's going to ask you to elaborate more on your answer with then, and that's a great sequence here. So, I want to really focus on how we experience joy. I know you were just talking about meditation and really connecting with yourself. So, I think you'd agree with this statement that there's a lot of things that a lot of us do that we think is improving our happiness. Whether you just said it, it's the external observations versus looking at yourself. What can we do that actually will help provide self care and improve our happiness?

Michelle Dickinson:

Well, there are two things that I tell all of my clients to do. The ones that do it actually do have more fulfillment and joy in their life. And the first, I already mentioned, which is the meditation. Because if you fundamentally remember that the mind is not wired to make you happy, the mind is wired to protect you, then you have to recognize that there are things you need to do to alleviate stress in your life. And meditation is the way that we combat stress, going inside of our ourselves, clearing the noise, the 60,000 thoughts we're having every day. And then the other thing is gratitude. So, gratitude, people don't realize how powerful gratitude is. So, if your mind is naturally going to be looking for things that are threatening and a problem and things that you have to fix or broken or you're missing or whatever, if you allow your mind to just go down that rabbit hole, it's definitely not going to serve your level of joy.

It's going to do its job and protect you. So, what gratitude has the ability to do is to almost rewire your mind to look for the good. You're looking for the good. So, if you were to say, every morning I'm going to reflect on three things that I am grateful for, not just on Thanksgiving, but every morning. And you could even say my cup of coffee, I slept well last night, the health of my parents, whatever it is, the health of my children, whatever it is, if you get focused on that, you start to tell the brain that we now look for good. We look for the good, we look for the love and the abundance in our life and we're present to it every single day. And then throughout the day, when you have challenges that come along, you have the ability to almost overcome them with positivity organically.

Not like I'm going to motivate myself and just rah-rah, motivational talk is going to temporarily have you feel good. This actually rewires your mind to look for the good. So, the meditation and the gratitude really are so powerful in highlighting more of what is good in your life. And most of the time we're so busy looking at what's wrong that we are stepping over all of the love and abundance we get every day.

Ben Smith:

Michelle, I can't thank you enough for bringing that second point up. We had a show with a colleague friend of ours, Matt Moran, who is experiencing kidney cancer for the second time. He lost his first kidney and he's experiencing that again. And he talked about how really retraining himself to be living with gratitude every day. He's meditating every day. He focuses in every morning with five things that he's grateful for, for that day. And then at the end of it, he then goes backwards and thinks about what was I grateful for that happened to me that day. So, he really leaned into that. And it's just something where he's then, and part of that thought into his family as well is that they do that, that they express to each other gratitude and how much he's seen that really fulfill his relationship with his spouse, with his kids are better relationships.

And I see that too. And Curtis and I talk about this. And Curtis and I are on the golf course together, and sometimes it's, well, things aren't going your way that day. And you think about, oh, I hit a bad shot and things are bad and it's so bad and I can't believe I'm doing this. And then having that moment of gratitude is like, it's a perfect weather outside, with friends, we're having fun. All those things happen. And all of a sudden, by the way, you start playing better. All a sudden, life, it just gets better. And it's a thought, it's all it was, it manifest itself. And then all of a sudden, good things happen.

Michelle Dickinson:

If you think about it, thoughts create our feelings. Our feelings create our actions. So, our thoughts are immediately going to affect our feelings. So, that's why it's so important for the meditation because it actually helps you clear out all the noise. And if it directly affects how you feel, you got to head it off at the thoughts. So, what are you doing around your thoughts?

Ben Smith:

Yep. Really, just really cool stuff. And I know that's maybe a weak example of kind of a larger piece in life. But even from the, as I said, I was in Disney, but we went to Universal one day and I spilled ice coffee all over myself as I was trying to cut my son's breakfast for him. All over my shirt, shorts, 8:00 AM, we're going to have a really action packed day. And I'm just brown. But it's like, hey, I'm going to just rinse off. I don't care. Nobody knows me here. We're going to have a really great day. And if it's a problem, I'll just buy a pair of shorts and we're good. And I'm going to be grateful for the day that we're going to have together and it's going to be really fun. Versus I think me maybe five years ago would be like, oh, I can't believe I did that and beat myself up and body shots and everything.

So, I want to ask another question, Michelle, of you of, I know when we experience this all the time, when people are sitting down with us and they're kind of auditing all those things that they want to do, and there's a lot of things that we always wanted to do. But I think we're scared of making a decision about choosing something, because especially one that costs money. And again, the resource conversation and going backwards into fear of going, because it represents less things I can do in the future. So, every time I think about the one thing I could do that brings me joy or brings me happiness, I think about the resource cost and then it represents less things I get to do later. How do we break through that fear of having a perfect retirement? Because I think when we envision the perfect retirement, sometimes we don't actually move forward because we're so scared of one choice creating the binary and taking away the other. How do we break through that?

Michelle Dickinson:

That's such a great question and I wish I had the answer. I mean, seriously, I always ask my clients this question, if you were to not do what you wanted to do out of fear, what's the probable almost certain future of how you will feel? So, I think you have to fast forward and I don't do the thing that I want to do, how are you going to feel? So, I think that is always a good place to go. If you can envision, so say a year or two from now and I haven't done that, am I going to be disappointed in myself? Am I going to be angry with myself? And it's really just predicting what those emotions might feel like.

Ben Smith:

Which goes to our read, is when we said, I wish I had let myself be happier. I feel like there's an aggregate of those, I don't want to do something because it takes away future chances. Leads to this feeling of I don't really have a future and I'm thinking about all the things that I could have done or the resources that maybe I could have spent or I'd given myself that permission. To your point about the feeling, which is more powerful I guess.

Michelle Dickinson:

Yeah.

Curtis Worcester:

It feels like the through thread here, this whole conversation, we go back to that either or situation again. In my head as everything we go to, it just keeps saying it's not a binary kind of yes or no kind of situation.

Michelle Dickinson:

That takes retraining. I'm just going to say, you have to think about your clients that come to you and they've had 50 plus years of being groomed a certain way, being trained to be a certain way. And now you're going to try to introduce to them suspending either or mentality. It's not comfortable. It's not familiar and it's foreign.

Ben Smith:

And Michelle, I think it's this also they're looking to us and saying, guys, you're the financial experts and show me the path that I can have my cake and I can do the fun stuff today and it will be okay later. Show me that path. The ones that I think really trust us, to the say, I trust what you're telling me, it is going to work. Even when things are down by 20% in maybe nine months, even when those situations happen, it is going to be okay. The ones that I think commit to us working together in that relationship and trusting each other as we go through it, I think those are the ones that maybe are experiencing that a little bit more. The ones that, maybe it's more fearful in the relationship, it seems like it's tougher for us to do that.

Michelle Dickinson:

And you might disagree with me because you guys are the money guys, but I also think it all goes back to scarcity versus an abundance mindset. Do you believe that there's enough? Do you believe that there's not enough? If you fundamentally have a disposition that I got to keep everything, no more is coming to me, than you're living in a scarcity mindset. So, I think that there's an opportunity to look at your mindset around scarcity versus abundance. That's all.

Ben Smith:

Yeah, I would say that in really almost, I don't care what the wealth level is, I think they're all in a scarcity mindset. Is that I think when they all look and survey themselves, they all believe that. And again, I know I'm stereotyping here, I'm making a generalization of a broad group. But in our experience, I think everybody feels like they don't have enough and they always look around and they see people making abundance decisions, which then leads them to their own feeling that they must also have an excess of abundance of other resources to live a lifestyle which they feel they cannot afford, which we know isn't the case. We know that isn't the case, but I think that's a mindset that happens pervasively. It's across the board.

Curtis Worcester:

So, Michelle, I want to kind of zoom out here a little bit. And again, we're going to continue the talking of this as kind of generalizing a group of people. So, what do you think we as a society learned from our parents, grandparents, family members, friends, that in their retirements or even not retire, just their habits, what they do, their lives, their social lives, their spend, whatever it is. What is it that kind of got us thinking that we shouldn't be chasing happiness and joy in our lives?

Michelle Dickinson:

I mean, honestly, I think Ben said it best before when he was talking about the era that our parents grew up in, the experiences they had. We know the pandemic has shaped us into who we are. We'll never look at toilet paper the same way. But in general, if they grew up during some hard times, I mean, they have. Both of my parents tell me stories and then my grandparents told me stories. And all of that trickles down and it feeds into our work ethic. It feeds into our belief system. I mean, they say that our brains are formed when we're very, very young, our belief systems. And that's why I think doing the work, doing the inner work and really understanding the source of those limiting beliefs and dismantling them, and learning yourself for who you are, and maybe adopting some other healthier, more empowering ones are really the way to go.

But a lot of people don't want to look in the mirror and do the work. So, you could be a product of your situation and go with the flow, or you could really start to look in the mirror and say, hey, is this something I just believe because I believe it, because it came from my parents. But yeah, you're right. You're absolutely right there.

Ben Smith:

Michelle, I had another question in my head, but I want to ask this one instead because I think this is a better question. So, we look at, again, as Curtis said, our parents, our grandparents who have informed us, and as you said, these are decisions or these are things that are being programmed and trained from a very young age of what we see, how we see people act, what we see people and our parents and our relationships, what they do. And you made the earlier comment of I think this generation coming up can have it all, and they have that idea. So, here we are, we all have an opportunity to send this in the future. We're looking at retirement right now. And I guess what I want to say is, if I'm going to retire today, not only just thinking about myself and what sort of retirement I want to have, what sort of also lessons should we be teaching that next generation or two generations down the road, that in 50 to 60 or 70 years they're going to be experiencing their retirement?

Again, fish bowling ourselves a little bit, how should we think about maybe what lessons we're passing on in generations from, again, not in internal one of, hey, I'm just now going to think about myself here, but I want to think about what am I teaching my granddaughter and what she thinks about retirement and what she believes she's going to be doing when she gets there?

Michelle Dickinson:

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean I feel like things might shift. Because I mean, I think we need to be teaching our younger generation to learn to be more present in the moment and live their lives to the fullest, and not only live to work, to have the balance in their life. Legit, having the balance, creating the lifestyle you want and fitting work in. What? What a concept. You need the life that you want and then fit the work in and sprinkle in the responsibility and discipline that we know is essential for them. But don't put off to retirement. Your experiences, your dreams, your wishes, your goals, your aspirations, fly the airplane when you're 25, when you're 30, whatever. Don't wait, because tomorrow is never promised. And fulfillment is really in the experiences and the relationships we have.

So, what are we doing to make sure that those are very fruitful? And I think that that's the message for our younger generation, is demand that you can have it all. Because I think nowadays you can. Work itself is changing its face, how people work, where people work, everything is shifting and people, they're more responsible. They're more conscientious of organizations that they're a part of, companies they're purchasing from. It's a different world and possibilities are limitless.

Ben Smith:

I love that.

Curtis Worcester:

I love that. So, we've reached kind of the last question that we want to ask you, Michelle. And I think the answer might be similar, but I want you to hone in on yourself for this answer. So, obviously, our podcast is titled Retirement Success in Maine. So, we love to get everyone's take on a successful retirement. And again, I know you just shared what we hope we can all pass on to a generation below us in terms of finding that success. But I want to ask you, how are you going to find your personal retirement success when you get there?

Michelle Dickinson:

How I'm going to find my personal retirement success? I think that for me, success for me has always been about financial success and fulfillment. But for many years, I focus on the success part, like stability, probably because of a fear mindset. Am I going to be okay? Financially, am I going to be okay? I have to do this job because I need to have the financial footing to be secure. Security, security was paramount. And then as I have gotten older, fulfillment has really shown up for me as a primary focus, because I'm learning that you could be fulfilled and success may follow if you're fulfilled, if you find something. So, for me, I think it will always be about fulfillment. In retirement, for me, I think fulfillment has got to be one of the most important things that I am aspiring to enjoy.

So, when I think of a successful retirement, of course, I want to make sure that I'm okay in terms of my finances, but I think that I always just get so much from helping people and caring for people and seeing them soar, that I never want to give that up. And I feel a responsibility that since I've been able to come out of my own story, that I really need to turn around and lean down and help that person who's struggling. So, I think that that's what it'll look like for me, is fulfillment is probably until the day I die.

Ben Smith:

Michelle, that's an excellent answer. And again, I think even taking that and advancing the answer so much more as you did was pretty great. So, really appreciate you coming on our show. It's been a lot of fun. I think for Curtis and I both personally, we just learned so much in each one of these episodes. And for you to spend your time with us today, we can't thank you enough because it's, again, we're asking for a population that we are very passionate about, but also these are things that you self-audit as you're asking these questions of you. So, from personally, but also on behalf of all of our friends, family, and clients that we work with, this has just been an awesome addition to the library and we can't wait to talk to you next time.

Michelle Dickinson:

Yeah, thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it.

Ben Smith:

All the best to you. Take care.

Michelle Dickinson:

Thanks.

Ben Smith:

It's a pretty fun conversation today with Michelle Dickinson, again, talking about giving ourselves permission to experience joy. And I know we have the in retirement, it's kind of like the fortune cookie joke, everything can just be in retirement. But for us it's pretty fun where, hey, we're able to use some of these ourselves, is we're all balancing these things and trying to figure that out in life. But Michelle did a great job kind of going through, again, a few lessons we're not being binary about experiencing all or none, kind of abundance versus a fearful mindset. Those sorts of things, I think were really great lessons from today. And again, good to get some experience from somebody that's had a wide range of life experiences, which I think we could all learn from. So, Curtis, where can people go to find a little bit more resources from today's show?

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah, of course. So, obviously, with every show we like to have a kind of website and show notes and resources there. So, this is episode 75, which sounds crazy to say out loud, but 75 episodes. So, the website is going to be blog.guidancepointllc.com/75. So, on there you'll see obviously we'll have our transcripts up, little more info about Michelle, some links to her book, her YouTube series, really kind of some contact info for her and really just more ways to connect with her and better other ways to take in our content as well. So, as always, thank you for tuning in, we appreciate it and we'll catch you next time.

Ben Smith:

Take care.