Transcript:

Ben Smith:

Welcome to the Retirement Success in Maine Podcast. My name is Ben Smith, and I'd like to introduce the Rockland lobster festival to my Yarmouth clam festival, Curtis Worcester. How you doing today, Curtis?

Curtis Worcester:

All right. I'm doing well, Ben. Doing well. We're in full swing of summer around here so that's an appropriate choice.

Ben Smith:

Exactly. And I think seafood is on a lot of people's mind when they come to Maine. And I think that's the tourism thing to do is you've got to sample some of the seafood here, which is excellent. To those that are not Mainers and haven't been here, it is excellent and worth indulging every moment you can while you're here. But we've been covering lots of things in our show. We've had lots of theming going on lately. Obviously we had something with Medicare, was a big topic that we just went through. We just had a gentleman come on, Duane Scott Cerny, about what happens when our loved one passes away and having to handle their things. Inflation of course is something that's coming up a lot.

Ben Smith:

But one we're really excited about today, and it's going to be a heavier topic, is around the topic of basically substance abuse disorders and substance use disorders. And that's something where ... And people go, "Well, geez, how does this have to do with my retirement?" And I think a lot of people are very affected, right? They might know somebody, them personally, or a loved one. And I think that's something where from our clients, we've had this situation where we've had a client or two where a loved one has a substance use disorder. They've had mental health challenges. We had Joanne Palombo-McCallie come on and talk about her own personal challenges as a public figure. But the abuse of prescription opioids itself is a serious national crisis. And while the opioid epidemic has been declared in national public health emergency, in Maine itself, the situation is particularly alarming. Our state's rate of opioid related overdose deaths is amongst the highest in the country.

Ben Smith:

In Maine, drug deaths have been trending upwards since 2014 when the state first saw drug death toxicology reports containing non-pharmaceutical fentanyl and fentanyl analogs. Drug deaths had peaked in 2018 and began to fall in 2019. However, the COVID-19 pandemic has created lots of instability in the drug supply, use patterns and wellbeing of Mainers. So as you may know from listening to our show, we attempt to find experts that look to provide solutions to real problems that our clients face or may face in retirement. So what do we do when our child, our grandchild, our spouse, a loved one, a friend becomes addicted to substances? How do we live with ourselves when a loved one maybe commits suicide?

Ben Smith:

So when our next guest's son Keven begged her for permission to die, she refused. Keven has spent half his life struggling with addiction while his single mom battled courts, healthcare companies, rehab facilities, and mental health professionals in an effort to protect him. As their relationship strained and his drug use progressed she was forced to accept and love Keven as he was in their limited time together two years before his suicide. In her book, Keven’s Choice, A Mother's Journey Through Her Son's Mental Illness, Addiction and Suicide she tells the story of trying to navigate the dark worlds of her son's substance use and depression while also addressing her complicated guilt and regret over how she handled it. In the process she shines a light on the hidden anguish of countless parents who are taking care of children that society tells them to abandon.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah. That's right Ben. For parents who have borne witness to overdoses, arrests, addiction, treatment, and incarceration, and even death, Keven’s Choice is a raw intimate memoir of a mother's grief that shows it's possible and necessary to go on even amidst the unimaginable. Our guest is also the co-author of the best selling book, The Epiphanies Project. As an advocate for those suffering from substance use disorders, mental health issues and grief, she has been featured in Salon and The Huffington Post. Our guest currently lives in Southern California with her sister Therese, as well as her cat, tortoise, and two dogs. So at this time, please welcome Barbara Legere to The Retirement Success in Maine Podcast. Barbara, thank you so much for coming on our show today.

Barbara Legere:

Thank you so much for having me on your show. I'm really glad to be here and talk with you.

Ben Smith:

Yeah. I know there's a lot we want to dig into Barbara here, and again, these are very heavy topics as well, but we want to hear a lot more about your life story here and then your son Keven’s upbringing. I think that the biggest thing we want to honor here is Keven as a person and not just only talking about maybe a challenge or a lifelong challenge that he had. I want to hear a little bit more about your life story and then Keven’s upbringing.

Barbara Legere:

Okay. Sure. My life story. I was born and raised in Southern California. Unfortunately I lost my dad when I was only 15, but my mom raised myself, my younger brother and sister. So I actually ended up moving back to my family home that I grew up in when I had Keven as a single mom. So I'm still there today.

Ben Smith:

Okay. Can you talk a little bit about Keven? What did he like? What was him as the things that he was finding his passion for and the things that he was finding an aptitude for? What were the things that he was really passionate about doing in his life?

Barbara Legere:

Keven was passionate about cars. Keven loved cars, anything about cars. I called him a walking encyclopedia because he would read Car and Driver Magazine since the time he was able to read and he could tell you anything. Mostly about the real fancy cars or the fast cars. That was his passion. He was a great driver. I actually taught him how to drive when he was eight years old on an old dirt road. And he loved driving. He was really good at it. He always thought maybe he could be a race car driver, but his life got interrupted by other things. Keven was very, very intelligent and he got terrible grades in school, but he was a very smart young man. Everybody that knew him liked him. He was open and generous. He liked everybody. He was just a very loving person. And he was also a sensitive person. And I think that's where a lot of his struggles came in. He was easily hurt. His feelings were easily hurt. And growing up without a father was very, very difficult on him. So a lot of my personal guilt comes from that.

Ben Smith:

Gotcha. No, I was just going to say, well, one thing I really appreciated reading in the book that I thought was really great was his actually getting in with the gun club and being able to skeet shoot. Again, I'm not a skeet shooter, so I didn't realize this, but hitting all 25 skeet targets and he was able to do that and then he would throw his hat in the air and everybody would shoot his hat.

Barbara Legere:

Exactly. Yeah. I'll never forget. That was one of the best moments for me. We also loved shooting. Target shooting and skeet, but if you do accomplish shooting all 25, it's a big deal so you throw your hat in the air and everybody, boom. And you end up with a hat full of holes but it's an honor. And he was very good at that as well. And archery was also one of his passions. He was amazing shot. He was almost too good of a shot. He could hit the bullseye from so far away and he had several types of bows. Compound bow. I don't even know what they're all called, but the recurve. And he did really well with all of them. I loved watching that side of him and watching him excel at something that he really loved.

Curtis Worcester:

That's incredible.

Ben Smith:

That was a really fun, cool story. And then he's wearing his hat afterwards and obviously you could tell he just took so much pride in wearing a hat full of bullet holes. Wow. That's pretty neat.

Curtis Worcester:

That's incredible. I have another general question, Barbara. So obviously we're here on the Retirement Success in Maine Podcast, so I want to ask, do you have any connections to the state of Maine? I know you're in California right now.

Barbara Legere:

I do.

Curtis Worcester:

All right.

Barbara Legere:

I do. My father was born and raised in Livermore Falls, Maine.

Curtis Worcester:

All right.

Barbara Legere:

And he was one of nine children and they lived in ... Livermore Falls at the time was a paper mill town. And a lot of them worked there and eventually they all trickled over to Southern California. So that's how my parents eventually met. But yes, I visited Maine when I was a child. I absolutely loved it there. I didn't want to go home. I loved the lake I went to and it was beautiful. It was a slower paced lifestyle and I just loved it up there.

Ben Smith:

Pretty cool. Obviously from a life and karmic connections is, hey, here you are obviously from your dad's connection to Maine and here we are on the Retirement Success in Maine Podcast talking about Maine and retirement and life theme. So pretty cool how life has some nice connections to it. I want to start getting into a little bit more about Keven and some of the signs you're starting to see around ... Because I know in your book, you're talking about you're starting to see ... As he was developing, you're seeing some signs of mental illness and also the how, why and when did he turn to substance use?

Barbara Legere:

Yes. That's a really good question. I did notice when he was quite young that he had depression. And I personally had struggled with depression as a child so I was not sure if it was normal. I didn't talk to anyone about mine. I held it inside and I just thought, "Well, maybe this is just what life feels like. Maybe there's a dark cloud for everybody." And it didn't seem like it, but when I noticed it in Keven, especially around the third grade, something definitely changed within him. He wasn't as outgoing. He wasn't smiling as much. And his teacher even mentioned to me that she thought he might have depression and need some help. At that time, I decided to take antidepressants myself to see what would happen, if it helped me because I didn't want to medicate my child. I was adamantly against that at such an early age.

Barbara Legere:

But it was a significant difference in my life and that black cloud lifted. And I did end up taking Keven to a doctor and he was prescribed medications, which helped him a lot. In fact, it helped him to the point where eventually he stopped taking them around junior high years. It was his sophomore year in high school that I noticed ... And all parents say this. My child started hanging around with a different crowd. It's true. Their friends changed. His childhood friends on the street were still in his life, but he started hanging out with a different crowd of people and I'm not blaming those people. In fact, I grew to love one of those people as if he were my own son. But at that time I noticed he was doing different things. His attitude was ... He wasn't hugging me as much. He thought he was a tough guy all of a sudden. And he got caught drinking and smoking weed at a local park and the police called me. That was my first indication. I was shocked.

Barbara Legere:

So another question I get a lot is, is marijuana a gateway drug? I have to say yes. Part of me wants to say no because I know people that use it medically and it's not a negative thing. But for someone who's predisposed, it is like, okay, I did that, now I can try this. And it opens that door and makes you feel a little less vulnerable, a little more brave to try the next thing that comes along. And as we know in today's world, that is a life threatening choice for some people. But yes, when Keven was 17 is when he discovered heroin. One of his friends offered it to him. And although there were three people in the room with him, two of them said, "Please don't try it. It's ruined our lives." The third person talked him into it. She said, "Oh, come on, just try it." And he did. And that was it. One time and he wanted to do it again and again. Three months later I found out. He confessed to me what had been going on with him and I was shocked because at that time the opiate epidemic wasn't in the news. I had no idea you could even get heroin. I was completely naive at that point.

Ben Smith:

And Barbara, I think one of the points you make in your book is ... Because I think when you maybe don't have or you don't know somebody that has been afflicted, you don't know somebody that is going through this substance use disorder, I think it's easy to just go, "Well, that's a different group. It's not my circle." And you made the point of not my kid, right? Not my kid. My kid wouldn't do that. Because I've talked to my kid about ... And it's almost like, well, the judgment is, well, obviously these parents just didn't talk to their kids about it because they just would've said no. He would've been in that room and would've just said, "No. My mom told me not to do it."

Ben Smith:

It's just not that simple. And you also were saying from the socioeconomic perspective, the people that you've known over the years that have fallen into substances have been maybe middle to upper middle class as well. So it's not just a, hey, here's this chain of people that continue to fall in the same mistakes generationally. That there's other things at play there too. I wanted to make that point because I know that's a really, really big one in your book.

Barbara Legere:

It's huge. It's a huge point.

Ben Smith:

Because yes, you're like, hey, this is my child, but this could be my kid right now. Right? This could absolutely mine.

Barbara Legere:

We have a saying among other parents in my support group, the three most dangerous words you can say are not my kid. We all talk to our children about drugs. I think it's something that most parents do now. It's just part of raising a child in this environment. But it doesn't change anything. Unfortunately, it doesn't. I wish it did. I wish it would. I'm sure for some children, it does make a difference that their parents said that. But for most it doesn't. It's that curiosity, that it's not going to happen to me. And yes, in the area I live in, it's a predominantly upper middle class area. And I can say, I honestly know at least 300 parents personally, that I know them, their name and their children's name that have lost someone over the last 12 years.

Curtis Worcester:

So as Ben mentioned earlier on a previous episode of our show, we had Joanne McCallie, who is a former women's basketball coach for Duke University. She came on our show and talked about her bipolar disorder diagnosis and just how managing brain health has become a lifelong journey for her. So obviously we've read and you've shared with us that your son, Keven, had his own mental health challenges. Can you just teach us in our listeners a little bit of why those with mental health challenges in fact turn to substances? And then maybe you can personalize it a little bit with Keven. I know you just shared a lot of that story, but how and why do you think Keven himself turned to substances?

Barbara Legere:

That's an excellent question. And it's so important because a lot of times, if you aren't properly diagnosed and you're not on the right medications, and then you discover this, in his case heroin, this substance that makes you feel perfect. It makes you feel like there is nothing wrong with me. The anxiety goes out the window. Depression doesn't exist. You feel great. You're happy. You're euphoric. You use that as your drug. And unfortunately it doesn't last. That feeling doesn't last. So you're constantly needing more. More of the substance more often, which leads to where do I find the money to get more, which leads to breaking the law, which leads to being arrested. And it's a vicious, vicious cycle. And for Keven, he was diagnosed with several different things. Bipolar was one of them. Schizoaffective disorder was one because he was having psychosis.

Barbara Legere:

And the problem is when you're simultaneously using drugs like heroin and he also used meth quite often, we never knew for sure if it was an accurate diagnosis. He did try taking medications but he wouldn't stop using the heroin long enough for it to work. He did have some sobriety and during that time he was doing really, really well, but it didn't last. Something happened and he started using again. So yeah, mental health is something we have to stay on top of. I mean, it's a real issue. And as your guest mentioned, it's a lifelong struggle. You have to be on your medications and be diligent and it's not easy.

Ben Smith:

Well, and Barbara, to your point, here's somebody, Joanne McCallie, she's one of the top women's basketball coaches in the country with all of the resources at her fingertips, with all of the family that even knew ... Her immediate family knew a lot of this and she's still talking about the stigma and not wanting to let people know and hiding in shame of that stigma. And we're trying to figure out medications and her doctor's working with her and she's scared about, "Hey, well I think I'm good now. I can just go off of it." And then that caused more manic episodes. So, yeah. Even the people I think that have all of the resources in the world are still unable to perfectly balance that 100% of the time.

Ben Smith:

I just want to make sure there's a through line from a lot of this. And I think one of the things I also wanted to ask you about Barbara was ... Again, we here, especially in Maine, we're a rural city or town as a way. One big rural town. And you have this all right, well, hey, when there's things going on we've heard from our previous generations that tough love's the answer. Or maybe it's the answer to situations like this. Maybe we hear from others who advise us to give tough love to a loved one in this situation. Just sit them down and talk some sense into them. Or I know you used the phrase in your book, just let them bottom out. Let them get to rock bottom. And all of a sudden that that will improve the situation. They'll want to get out of it. And isn't that the solution in these cases? So wanted to do a little bit of fact or myth here. Our question is, does tough love actually work in your opinion? And if not, does it do more harm than good?

Barbara Legere:

That is one of my hot buttons. Tough love does help some people. I have talked to some people who told me that when they had nothing that is when they were able to pull themselves up and get by. But that was the minority. I have talked to so many people and in my own personal experience, when I was listening to opinions of others about you need to kick your son out of the house, don't help him, don't give him money, don't talk to him. Don't even give him food. I tried it. I tried it. And I was miserable, but he was okay. He found a way to find the other addicts on the street and he got by and everything was fine for him. But what it did do to him is it put a wedge between us where he felt like no one cared anymore. That he was unsupported, unloved and that his own mother wasn't there for him. So that didn't last very long for me.

Barbara Legere:

I personally do not believe that tough love is the answer. I think when you are in addiction and when your life has been controlled by this, it's like a nightmare. You need all the love and support that you can get. You need to be told you are valuable. I love you. You can do this. Let's do this together. You're not alone. I'm here. One of my sayings with Keven was we're a team. We all said, "Okay, we're a team. We're going to get this together." And I would do whatever I could that he wasn't capable of doing for himself to help him get the help he needed. So I don't think tough love is the answer, especially when we're talking about heroin or opiates, because rock bottom, it can be death. It's that cut and dry. It's very scary.

Ben Smith:

I want to make just a quick point too Barbara, I think also generational lessons might not work for every situation too. It could be that a few generations ago that maybe the drugs that were being abused at that point might have been just not the same level of toxicity that it is maybe today. So maybe those lessons were appropriate in the time. But again, it's this well, let's just continue to use the same solution since it all worked for me and it must work for you as well, would kind of be my question to you.

Barbara Legere:

Yes. Exactly. Things have changed so much. I mean, with fentanyl on the streets, as you guys mentioned, it breaks my heart that Maine is having such a serious problem. You guys are tiny compared to the rest of us but you're having a huge, huge problem. And that's just heartbreaking. But fentanyl is deadly. It is deadly. You can use one time and your life is over and you cannot even know you're using. Tough love doesn't fit in with that anymore. It's just too risky. I just think we need to love and support each other and I know that even sounds a little naive, but being kind to someone who's in his worst hour or her worst hour, to me that is going to do more good than being tough with them. They already feel bad enough about themselves. Keven, he did not love himself. He was incapable of that. And although he could accept love from me, he could not love himself. And that was the most heartbreaking thing of all for a parent to see that happening.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah. That really leads into my next question, Barbara. And from reading some of your book we know that Keven really struggled with the pain of his addiction and really wanted to find his peace. So I just want to ask you what was giving Keven that hope and purpose when he was between ... I know you mentioned there was periods of sobriety there. So what was really giving him that hope and purpose in those times?

Barbara Legere:

I think what gave him hope and purpose was just the thought that, yeah, I can do this. I do have a future. Looking into the future and seeing what he wanted to do with his life. He also loved jewelry and he wanted to be a gemologist and study diamonds and go to that fancy school. I can't think of what it's called right now, but he did have dreams and aspirations. He wanted to fall in love. He wanted to have children. And those things kept him going for a time. But even those dreams and those hopes, they just weren't strong enough to help him overcome.

Curtis Worcester:

So in those positive periods there where he has so much hope and he is working towards that, can you just describe some of the positive impacts that he was making on you or friends or others in his life as he would continue to work on stabilizing himself?

Barbara Legere:

Yeah. He loved going to meetings and talking to the newcomers. He did go to AA meetings, even though ... He preferred the AA over the NA meetings. NA is narcotics anonymous. He just felt that he would run into less heroin addicts there and it would be less tempting. Unfortunately, you can meet people in a meeting that can say, "Hey, maybe we should just get out of here and go get high." But he loved going to meetings and speaking at meetings. He loved encouraging his friends. He was a very generous person. He loved his grandmother with all his heart. She helped me raise him and just to see the love between them and how protective he was of her and how he would help her around the house. And same with my sister who also helped me raise him. They were very, very close.

Barbara Legere:

But Keven’s friends would say he's probably their most loyal friend. And I've had some of them approach me after his death and say ... I have one girl that stands out in my mind. And she said, "Oh yeah, Keven was the guy that if we were in trouble with any guy or we were stuck at a party, we would call Keven because we knew no matter what he was doing, he would drop everything and that he was safe and that he would take good care of us." And that makes me feel really proud of him.

Ben Smith:

Yeah. I think that those are the core values you want to in any situation that are shining through and I think that really speaks to the love that he had in his upbringing and in what you surrounded him with so that's got to make you feel great. I want to ask a question about money because I know at core we're financial advisors. We always go to what's safe for us and money's the safe thing for us. But I could guess that many of our listeners, clients, or even us, we would all give up all of our money if we knew we could permanently solve our loved one's addiction and mental health challenges. So I guess the question we're just interested in hearing is how did you face that challenge with Keven? How did you know whether the money you were using to help Keven live and recover was helping or hurting a situation? Because I think there's ... Going back to a little bit of the tough love conversation here a little bit. Am I just enabling with money and I'm just doing whatever I think is easiest to my power to do or is this actually helping? Is this actually going to ... This is a tool to use and that will actually help him towards that path to recovery.

Barbara Legere:

That is a really good question. And as far as spending money on recovery, I spent a lot of money out of my own pocket in addition to using his insurance to get him treatment. He was in, I think, 13 different drug treatment programs. And sometimes drug treatment programs work and sometimes they don't. It really depends on the person. And my advice to anyone that is considering sending someone to drug treatment that is not asking to go is to think twice about it because I could force Keven to go but if he wasn't ready and he wasn't the one saying, "Mom, please send me," it was a waste of our time and money and resources.

Barbara Legere:

As far as helping them financially, that's a really tough one. I tried never to give Keven cash, but there were times when he wasn't living at home and I did pay for his food. I paid for his cigarettes. Do I regret that now? I can't say that I do because I just wanted him ... I didn't want him to suffer anymore than he was already suffering. And that was the bottom line. I wanted to take his suffering away. And that goes back to tough love too. You can't take someone's suffering away. You can make them suffer more but you can't take it away. And no matter what, they are ultimately the one that has to decide that they are going to give it their all and Keven was unable to do that. For whatever reason within him, he eventually was unable to make that transition to recovery. So I don't know if I got off track and didn't answer your question.

Ben Smith:

No. I hear you because I think that some of it is trying to looking for confidence in that money decision. And I think what you're saying is, or at least what I hear you saying is, "Hey, look, we're going to do everything in our power to help Keven and try to get him there but if he's not willing to go, then why are we going to just ... We could go to the most expensive facility." Which I think you were even saying, well, it could have been $50,000. "And we could have done that, but if he doesn't want to be there and if he says, 'Look, the minute I'm getting out, I'm going to go right back to doing what I was doing.', then what is the point there?" You want to obviously be matching the solution to them wanting the solution and using the resource is what I hear you say.

Ben Smith:

But I want to ask a different question, Barbara, too. Because I'm just thinking about all of our audience out there and the people that they know and love and they're trying to support them. But I could see where ... You described this in your book a little bit. We say this about ... Especially with couples. Is this concept of loving somebody else more than you love yourself. And I get that through your book. I maybe love Keven more than I even love myself here. And I will do anything. It's this unconditional love. I will do whatever it takes to get him to there. But at the same point ... I am reading some of your book here. How did you balance taking care of yourself, but also providing for Keven? Because I could see where at some points, "Hey, I need to give everything I got to him, but that might mean that I'm not taking care of myself along the way." How did you find that balance or maybe did you not find that balance?

Barbara Legere:

That is an excellent question because behind the scenes of every person out there that's using drugs or caught up in that world, there's usually parents, siblings, close friends that are suffering in a way that you can't imagine. The worry, the stress, the being up all night, the feeling sick, the wondering is this the last time I'll ever see him. The phone rings and you panic. I did not do a good job of self care in the beginning. I did not. I threw myself completely into my son's recovery and trying to help him and that did not do him or myself any good. I got to a point as time went on mainly by educating myself and just being around other people and talking to other parents and just having the revelation that, okay, something's got to give or I'm going to have a breakdown. I came to that point where I had to sit down with myself and accept the fact that my son was using drugs in a way that may cause him to not survive. That I may lose my son.

Barbara Legere:

I had to accept that Keven is Keven where he is right now. He's doing things that I don't agree with. He's living a lifestyle that's dangerous. He's depressed. He's anxious. I had to accept all that about him and love him right where he was while at the same time finding things to take care of myself. And at that point I started doing yoga, which was a huge help to me. Just really taking care of myself and just doing your basics. Eating right, exercise. Your basics. I wasn't doing those before. I was a mess. I was just a mess. So I highly recommend skipping that part of being a wreck and taking care of yourself throughout. If you have someone in your life that is causing that turmoil and stress, you have to take care of yourself to be able to take care of anyone else. And I think we all know that, but it's easier said than done.

Curtis Worcester:

I want to keep going here, Barbara. And so unfortunately Keven did take his own life in 2020. So we just want to ask, how have you grieved Keven and found a way to cope with this grief over the past couple of years?

Barbara Legere:

Thank you. Thank you for that question. Well, when it happened immediately ... I've since learned about a trauma response. And I think when it initially happened that day that it happened, I went into screaming, shaking, yelling. I did all these things that just naturally happened to me. And I think looking back now, I'm glad that my body took over and that I wasn't able to stop and decide how to react. It just happens for you. And that initial first few months, you just don't think you're ever going to get over it. Your life changes in an instant. The most important person in my world was gone.

Barbara Legere:

It's hard to describe the depth of the pain. I mean, I literally hurt. My heart literally ached. But we go on. We have to go on. And as time went on, again acceptance came in. I realized that he is still in my life. He's still my son. I may not be able to tangibly hug him anymore, but I still talk to him. I still think about him constantly. I keep his memory alive. And I think the most important thing for me and I think for a lot of others that I know is to find others in your situation. Find other parents who have lost a child to overdose or suicide. And they're the ones that are going to be able to understand what you're going through, be able to listen, and then you find yourself loving their child too.

Barbara Legere:

I mean, I know there's so many people that have never met Keven that love him and I feel the exact same way about their children. We share their birthdays. We share their anniversary dates. We talk about them. Your friends may feel uncomfortable when you lose someone, when you lose a child. A lot of people were uncomfortable around grief. And at first I was hurt by that. And then I just had to accept that that's a societal thing. We could go off on another tangent. But it's just how our society is right now. So that's why I highly recommend finding a support group of other grieving parents because that's the number one way that I have been able to move forward. And I've turned my grief into passion. I will always miss Keven. I will grieve him every moment of my life, but I've turned it into a passion for hopefully helping others and that's why I wrote the book. It's not just about Keven. It's about so many people and it's about parents and it's about the prison system and the problems. So that's really helped in my grief was just writing the book and feeling a sigh of relief almost like, okay, I did something to help get it all out and hopefully if I can help one other person, I will be thrilled.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah. Well, and I'll say it's just incredible that you're doing that and you're using this tragic event in your life to hopefully help others. I just applaud every minute of that because it's incredible.

Barbara Legere:

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for saying that.

Ben Smith:

And Barbara, I'll add too ... And of course, your expression of love for Keven, again, being the team with him and supporting him throughout and even continue to do it, even mentioning reviving him at certain points and using maybe Narcan and things of that nature to keep him going. And because again, who knows about what tomorrow brings? Maybe tomorrow is ... There's maybe a medicinal cure. There's other ways that maybe he could find that day to live on and finding hope every day. And you providing him every day of hope throughout the duration of his life is such I think an inspiration for people that are going through it now and feel the depths of it and going, hey ... I know Keven’s no longer with you, but all the effort wasn't in failure, it was actually in success.

Ben Smith:

So that's just what I've taken from your book was that insight there of, hey, this is what a lot of people can get from it. And I want to ask a question about stigma. You talk about this a bunch in your book. About stigma against addiction and mental illness providing barriers to Keven. And then obviously you in terms of supporting Keven to get help. So you're even mentioning of ER docs that would look at him and they would say, "Hey, I see his situation, I see the pain and I see what he has in him right now and he's not worth it. I'm going to triage him." And go to somebody that they viewed more valuable in a certain way. So this stigma, this discrimination against Keven just because of where he was. So I guess my question is how do you think that was providing barriers to Keven?

Ben Smith:

For those that are listeners that haven't read your book yet. How did those provide barriers to getting Keven help? And if Keven was still alive today ... I know you've gone through a longer journey than just a year or two of this. You've done more than a decade of this or decade and a half of this. So how has that stigma changed maybe even from maybe earlier when Keven was seeking help at age 17, all the way through when he passes in 2020 and then maybe even today? How is that evolving and then is there changes being made in the consciousness of the public here about helping those with substance use disorders?

Barbara Legere:

That's such an important question. For Keven, how it affected him. For example, the example used of the ER doctor. When someone tells you to your face that your life is not valuable and you're already feeling that your life is not valuable, and this is someone in authority, it just compounds it. It made it very difficult. It was like reinforcing his negative beliefs in himself, that he was worthless, that he wasn't valuable, that he didn't deserve to be here. It is hard to even believe some of the things that have been said to people that I know. The way that their children or loved ones have been treated. And it blows my mind that it's still happening today. I do see a trend that it is getting better because we're talking about it more. I think more people are willing to accept that this is not a choice.

Barbara Legere:

You may make that initial choice to use a drug but you did not choose to ruin your life. You did not choose for it to overtake everything. And with mental health, there should be no shame. I mean, I think of the recent losses we've had of celebrities. We have lost some celebrities that on the outside appear to be so happy and on the inside they're depressed. It should be something that we accept in society that this is normal. So many people struggle. It is nothing to be ashamed of.

Barbara Legere:

We need to support one another and be aware that someone that may be smiling or telling jokes or singing on stage, inside their life is difficult. I just think being kind to one another really does make a difference and being accepting. And I think talking about it does lessen the stigma. I never was ashamed, even in the beginning. I talked about it openly since day one, but I know a lot of people feel a lot of shame. They don't want to admit that their family member or themselves has this problem. And there should be no shame. There is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. That it's not a moral failing at all. It's not a character defect. It's a chemical thing. And it happens to so many of us.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah. And as Ben referenced in the intro and we've talked about it even since, the state of Maine right now is experiencing some of the highest rates of opioid overdose deaths nationally. And Ben and I sitting here in Maine right now, we might know a family member or a friend or a friend who has a direct family ... The circle's just so small and anyone we know could be dealing with or helping someone struggling with addiction. So I want to ask, what would be your advice for someone that really wants to help that family member or friend? How can we be a support system for someone that is directly struggling with addiction or a substance use disorder?

Barbara Legere:

I think communicating that to them is the number one thing. It's just saying, "I understand. I may not be in your shoes, but I care about you. I want to be here for you. Never hesitate to ask me to help you." Just let people know you're available non-judgmentally to listen to anything they have to say. Sometimes people just feel lonely and like no one is hearing them. Just to know that somebody cares and will listen. And for the family members too. To reach out to them and let them know that you're there. You care. I think it's really as simple as that.

Ben Smith:

Well, and what you said about being kind, is I think just leaning into that and going, "Hey, are you okay? Do you want to just talk about it? Can we just go take a moment and just talk about what's going on and what's happening? And hey, can I go to a support meeting with you? Can I give you a ride to it?"

Barbara Legere:

Absolutely.

Ben Smith:

Any of those things. Even though it maybe feels very inconsequential and small to us personally, might be extremely large of a thing to let that person know that they have people in their corner who are backing them and want to see success and want to see them get better.

Barbara Legere:

Excellent point, Ben. And asking someone a tangible question like that is, "Can I drive you to a meeting? Do you want to go take a walk?" Not asking them, "What can I do to help you?" That is not going to do much. But to offer them something tangible. Even to go have coffee or just to take a little walk.

Ben Smith:

Because I think things will then come out. I don't know. Just in our experience, when you start doing the, "How are you doing?," we've all been trained to go, "I'm okay. I'm fine. I'm good." We're all trained to just give the non-answer to just move on to the other thing. And sometimes it feels like we've got to just go, "Hey, let's take a time out. Let's just go somewhere. And maybe you don't have to say a thing and we can just be." And then maybe that's part of the yoga part of that. But just be there and then if there's something that we can help out with, let's talk about it.

Ben Smith:

But I want to talk another piece of this too. Obviously substance use and addiction and mental illness has been a part of this. I just personally I've experienced this in my life growing up. In my little high school we had I think 350 kids. And I think I had about five or six of those kids that committed suicide over that timeframe. And so just seeing that in those formative ages as well. And I know suicide is the 10th leading cause of death in the US for all ages. And that's a CDC statistic. And there's one suicide for every estimated 25 suicide attempts. So there's a lot of attempts going on there before that actually happens. Again, that's another CDC statistic.

Ben Smith:

In your book, in your very first chapter ... This was woo. Keven asking if it's okay if he kills himself. You had actually talked to him about suicide many times and that he had been asking you not to revive him if you found him. You even referenced an eight hour conversation you had with Keven about suicide after he asked that question. So I guess the question ... I was going to dig in, but I want to hear what you say about it. How did you try to help Keven with these suicidal thoughts and do you feel like increased substance use inevitably leads to suicidal thoughts and tendencies?

Barbara Legere:

Wow. That's a good question. That day that you referred to, the eight hour conversation, that was probably the second hardest day of my life because he was so adamant. He wanted me to give him permission to end his life. And of course I said no all day long. But what he was really saying I realized behind, will you let me do this, was, "Will you be okay if I do it?" And I think that was his real question. He had made attempts in the past and he had always said, "Don't revive me. Don't revive me." Well, of course I revived him. Who's not going revive your child or call 911? I've called 911 or I've used Narcan on him myself. I forgot the second part of the question.

Ben Smith:

Do you feel like increased substance use inevitably leads to suicidal thoughts and tendencies as well?

Barbara Legere:

For Keven, it did. For Keven, it did. Because the more he used, the further down that dark hole he went and the more hopeless he felt. And he just felt like he could not get out of it. And I think sometimes he feared, "This is such a low place that I've taken my mom. My mom is suffering." And he hated to see me suffer. He hated it. He sincerely believed I would be better off without him. And he told me that on several occasions. He sincerely believed that. And he wanted me to say, "I'll be okay." Of course, I'm not okay. Of course, I'm not. Of course, I would take him back in a minute with every single problem he's ever had and I would do it all over a hundred times to have him here. But yes, I think that substance abuse does create a darker environment for someone and gives them that much more hopelessness in fighting their illness.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah. I have another question. We've led up to this I think throughout this entire conversation. But I want to ask you, what is Keven’s lasting legacy on you in this world?

Barbara Legere:

Keven’s lasting legacy. He leaves behind a lot of love. He leaves behind an example of what unconditional love is and how accepting he was of everyone in his life. He had his faults too, of course, but he was a genuine person that cared about others. He leaves behind a family that misses him very much and friends. He's left his friends behind for me, which is one of the best things in my life is his friends that will keep in touch with me. I got a picture the other day. Once you lose someone, there are no new photographs. So one of his buddies found something on his phone and sent it to me. A picture of Keven and three girls. And it was the best gift I could get.

Barbara Legere:

When someone leaves us, they're not really gone. His presence is still here. I still talk about him as if he's here and his legacy will always live on. Whether you write a book about your person or not, you keep their memory alive and talk about them. And if you know somebody that's lost someone, please don't be afraid to talk about their person. We love talking about our people. We want to hear their name. We want to talk about them. It's my favorite thing to do, to be honest. Nothing could make me happier than to sit down and talk about Keven, laugh about some of the fun memories. He was a good person. He was a goodhearted person and I'm so proud of my son. I couldn't be prouder of him.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah. Well that's just a fantastic answer and I almost don't want to keep asking you questions after that, because that was such a phenomenal response. But I do want to ask, I think it's an important question is what advice would you share with a parent going through a similar experience that you had?

Barbara Legere:

Well, for a parent that's going through losing a child, I would say that don't give up on yourself. It hurts so much in the beginning. It really does get a little bit easier as time goes on. It doesn't get easy, but it does get easier to get up in the morning and to move forward and to try your best to be ... I don't have a spouse or a significant other, but I've seen a lot of relationships be harmed through losing a child. Everyone grieves differently. I would say, allow yourself to grieve however you need to. Whatever you're feeling is right. It's right for you. There are no right or wrong ways to grieve. And then allow that to ... The others in your life that are grieving, I think there has to be a lot of openness and compassion towards each other.

Barbara Legere:

There has to be that hope that you will laugh again. I laugh. I have joy in my life again. It even hasn't been that long. I still have very dark moments, but you will find a reason for getting out of bed in the morning. You will find that reason. And especially if you have other children. I think that would really help also just to allow them to see you going on with your life. And our children that have passed, they don't want us to be unhappy. They want us to continue on and try to do our best and that's all we can do is try.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah.

Ben Smith:

And I'll make a quick point Barbara too, is we actually did an episode just recently. It was our episode 61, Allison Pena. She had lost her husband. Keven is saying a lot of things that she was saying is, I think some people are literally cautious to approach as they go, "Hey, well, Barbara's in a fragile state and I'm scared about being with her because what if she has a breakdown in front of me? Again, I'm introverted and I don't know how to help her or comfort her, console her." So it can get very lonely. It can have maybe a moat around you at times, because there's a concern over the emotion that's surrounding you and maybe your situation. So I thought she gave some really great points about grief and I think you're leaning into that there too.

Ben Smith:

So for those that are going through that, I know she's talking from a spousal perspective, but grieving anybody and just ... She had some really great points about, hey, to your point, this person I love so much of my life and being able to talk about all the good things that we did in our lives together and be able to share that and smile about it is really great. And again, there's going to be ... All of our lives are sad and happy. So there's going to be some sad pieces that come out of it too. But I wanted to make that point because I think you're, you're spot on there with what you're saying.

Barbara Legere:

Yeah. There is a look that you get when you tell someone you lost your son or daughter or whoever to suicide. There is a look you get. And it is a look of discomfort and the person sometimes even physically backs away because it's so uncomfortable. So losing a child or a spouse or a loved one that way carries an extra burden. And I would just say to people, don't be afraid of us. It's okay. We're going to be okay. Let us talk. It's so uncomfortable but it's like you said, the rates are alarming. It's alarming. I just hope that we can change that just by loving each other different and being more open and honest and sharing our feelings and asking someone not just how are you, but are you depressed? Are you okay? Asking those specific questions. But yes, talking about it really does help.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah. For sure. So we've reached the end of our show Barbara. We do have one final question for you. Sort of is retirement focused. Again, the through line of our podcast is retirement success. So we want to ask you how you're going to define your personal retirement success when you get to retirement?

Barbara Legere:

Well, I'm not far away. I would define my retirement success as being able to not stress out and worry that I am not going to have enough money to last me for the rest of my life. To me, that is the ultimate goal. I personally don't have big plans to travel or do anything out of the ordinary. I know that if I had, I better have planned a long time ago because I didn't. So I'm not going to have that luxury. And that's okay. That's okay. For me, personally, as long as I am comfortable and have someone I trust managing my money, I will be okay. And I will feel good about my future. And that's really all I could ask for at this point is to not have to stress out about it.

Ben Smith:

And I think Barbara too is I think what you're saying is correct, is as much as we can live our lives and lower the stress level and be able to find a level of, hey, how do I make every day better and how do I continue to find the things that bring me purpose in my life? And clearly Keven did and will continue to provide you a really great purpose with everything you're doing. And I know there's lots of stories in addition to your book, Keven’s Choice, A Mother's Journey Through Her Son's Mental Illness, Addiction and Suicide, I know there's many more stories that you're going to share here looking forward. So I really can't wait to hear them over time. Thank you so much for coming on our show. It was so lovely to meet you, to hear Keven and to hear about him and all of the really great things that he did in his life. So sharing all this because I know our listeners are going to really take away some really great things from it. So thank you so much.

Barbara Legere:

Thank you. Thank you, Ben and Curtis so much for having me. It really meant a lot to me to be here. Thanks.

Ben Smith:

Take care. So Barbara Legere. Able to talk about her son, Keven, mental illness, addiction and suicide. A lot of those themes have touched our lives in lots of different ways. And I think just rolling it up for her with her son, that's a tough one. So I thought she did ... Again, this is pretty recent for her. Keven passing.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah. 2020.

Ben Smith:

Yeah. She's not that far away here from that happening. So I thought, man, she was very well composed, very educated on all these topics. I thought she did a fantastic job. I know Curtis, you and I both have read through her book, which I'll put on screen here for those watching on YouTube. Keven’s Choice, A Mother's Journey Through Her Son's Mental Illness, Addiction and Suicide. So we'll give you the link on Amazon as part of this.

Curtis Worcester:

Absolutely.

Ben Smith:

So If anyone wants to read through, there's a ... When we say it's got some raw accounting of it, man, there's some ... She does not hold back on telling you some of the things and situations that she found herself with there. And I know we didn't cover everything. We could have spent three hours doing that. I think that's well worth a read to get a better understanding of Keven and her journey together.

Curtis Worcester:

That's right.

Ben Smith:

But I know we always like to highlight things that we took away personally from today's show. So Curtis, what did you take away from today?

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah, just first off again, I know I said it to Barbara, but I just applaud her for what she's doing after everything she's been through and everything she went through with Keven to now use it as a moment of inspiration and hopefully a continued story of inspiration to others. I know she talked about that a lot. So that's my first one. I want to hone in on something we discussed a couple times and that's this Maine lens. Again, we are here in Maine. And just the idea or the process of being that support for somebody going through an addiction or suffering from addiction.

Curtis Worcester:

Here in Maine, it's affecting probably a lot more people than you even know. Fortunately speaking for myself, I'm not in this situation, but I know family members that have friends that ... It's everywhere around us. And just what Barbara shared about how you can really impact in a positive way that individual who may be going through something similar to Keven. And she said it's as simple as go for a walk. Communicate. It's that tangible help that you can offer. It's not the hey, how are you text messages. Those are great. But really doing something. Take them out to dinner. Go see a movie. Go do something with them to just show them you care and show them that you're there. I can't reemphasize that enough.

Ben Smith:

Those are I think really good. I think it's easy to just go, well, that's their problem and what can I really do? I think what she said is right. That really any little thing really does add up and just showing that you care. And I think it's easy to say you care, it's harder to do. Yeah. I think the more you do the better it is. But I'd also add too, and I know I said this and Barbara brought up in the book, is how many parents out there say not my kid, not my daughter, not my son and well, I'll tell them not to use drugs and then they won't. Well, I think we all know kids a little bit better than that, of that they're probably not going to do everything their parents say to do or not to do.

Curtis Worcester:

That's right.

Ben Smith:

I think that's something where look, I got an about to be third grader myself and I think those are things that to keep in tune to is everything she was saying were some warning signs about, as she's saying for Keven, there's some mental illness that led to substance use. And I think those are things to keep an eye on. Again, you could have people that have zero signs of mental illness at all that lead to substance use, which is perfectly normal. But yeah, I think just being in tune with your kiddo. And I think that's something to take away for myself too, is doesn't matter the education, doesn't matter how many times you say it, you've just got to keep in tune with what's happening and where things are.

Ben Smith:

I think the ultimate message she shared today was showing your ... When any loved one is going through something traumatic and as bad as that is, I think turning your back on them is maybe not the answer. Even though it might be the advice that you hear over and over and over. So again, finding that answer for yourself.

Ben Smith:

But I know we're at episode 67 today and Barbara brought up a lot of really great things and things we want to share. So if you go to blog.guidancepointllc.com/67, you can find the show notes and transcript and more of the resources that we have about today's episode.

Ben Smith:

Thank you for listening to today's show. I know this isn't the most enjoyable thing to ... Hey, it's retirement and planning the fun stuff. Well sometimes the fun stuff, isn't always only the thing in life. So I think these are all things we want to cover, because life has ups and downs and we want to cover all the situations. And really thankful to Barbara today for coming on and sharing her story. So thank you for tuning in. We really appreciate your listenership and we'll catch next time.