Transcript:

Ben Smith:

Welcome everybody to The Retirement Success in Maine Podcast. My name is Ben Smith. I'd like to introduce my co-host, the Jamie Cassidy to my Steph Guidi, Curtis Worcester. How you doing today, Curtis?

Curtis Worcester:

I'm doing great today, Ben, how are you?

Ben Smith:

I'm doing great. I'm doing great. And of course those are childhood heroes for me in terms of the U Maine's women's basketball. But before we kind of talk a little bit more basketball, I want to throw out a quick stat for you. While, I bet you know and of course we all do, Maine has a population of approximately 1.4 million people. Did you know that close to 4.4% of adults in Maine, according to the SAMSA resources live with serious mental health conditions, such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and major depression.

Ben Smith:

So doing some quick math here, you know how we like to do math as financial advisors, 61,600 people in the state of Maine have some version of a serious mental health condition. And of that population, 45.1% of these adults receive no mental health treatment.

Curtis Worcester:

And I want to kind of keep going there Ben. In 2019, a JAMA pediatric study found that one in four children in Maine has at least one mental health disorder while nationally that statistic is about one and six. And that Maine has the highest percentage for kids of any state in this study. The JAMA pediatric study also found that nearly half the children in teens with mental health disorders are not receiving care.

Curtis Worcester:

Researchers say among the challenges of treatment, families are concerned about the stigma of health and them being able to afford treatment. Experts say there's a severe shortage of mental health providers who treat children and adolescents. So needless to say, even if we may not be experiencing mental health issues ourselves, there's a very high percentage that someone we know and love is. Even if they're not telling us that they are.

Ben Smith:

Yeah. And I know that's even more prevalent right now as we're still in this pandemic. We have staffing shortages all over the place. We have a very stressed healthcare system. So lots of things are kind of even magnifying. And then this is pre-pandemic statistics we're giving here.

Ben Smith:

So that's a lot of what we want to talk today is what should we know about how mental health issues present themselves. How should we identify them in ourselves or others? How do we feel the successful team around someone we love that needs help or ourselves? And also what does the future look like for aging with a brain health issue? Our next guest is an author and elite level NCAA basketball coach. She received a BA from Northwestern university, an MBA from Auburn university and is coached at Maine, Michigan State and Duke making national coach of the year in 2005 in winning numerous championships at all three schools.

Ben Smith:

She's the only coach in history to win coach of the year in four different conferences and is now an advocate for mental health and melanoma, but she's also a wife, a mom of two, Maddie and Jack. She has extensive media experiences on radio shows and podcasts and has provided color commentary for four years in the WNBA. She previously published Choice Not Chance: Rules for Building a Fierce Competitor.

Ben Smith:

In her book Secret Warrior, which Curtis, I have both read cover to cover now, I think a couple times. Secret Warrior: A Coach and Fighter On and Off the Court. I'll show this on video for those that are watching on YouTube, she's written a compelling memoir following her own mental health journey through the realities challenges within the sports world, using the recurring theme of faith over fear to reduce the stigma associated with impaired mental health and encourage those suffering from mental health issues to reach out to coaches, student athletes, and to all people across the world.

Ben Smith:

She offers real direction, experiences and personal stories to teach and reassure those adversely affected by the dynamics of the mind and body experience. I know we both learned a lot from writing here. So motivational, heartfelt Secret Warrior drives home the need for more education stories, action, and an overall change to the narrative about brain health. At this time, I'd love to welcome Joanne McCallie, Coach P as her players referred to her to the Retirement Success in Maine Podcast. Coach P, thanks for coming on.

Coach P:

Thank you, Ben. And it's wonderful. Thank you for having me and also Curtis you as well. So you're a great pair doing amazing things. So it's an honor to be on your podcast.

Ben Smith:

Likewise, we are very blessed and honored to have you with us today. And while we could spend a lot of time talking basketball, and I know we'll weave some of that in. I think the biggest thing we can talk about today is mental health and how we're all impacted here. So, first thing I want to ask, we always ask all of our guests just kind of hear a little bit about you. Because I know in Maine you were a very public figure, but not everyone knows your story. And I don't want to give too much weight because I think your book does an awesome job kind of walking through this. But can you talk about growing up in Brunswick, what your childhood was like and how did you gravitate towards basketball?

Coach P:

Yes. I had a wonderful childhood because my mother decided that Maine was the place to raise the children. I'm a Navy brat. My father was a pilot in the Navy and we actually were in Maine and then left Maine for Jacksonville, Florida. And my British mom decided that wasn't going to work. There was a lot of things going on and after my brother was first and there was different things happening. She said, no, I'm going to take the kids back to Maine. And she did, my dad commuted from Jacksonville.

Coach P:

And I was fortunate. I grew up with great support. I fell into basketball because somebody Alan [Graffam 00:06:09], the late Alan Graffam, my junior high coach at Brunswick, Brunswick Junior High, he, when I was a sixth grader, indicated that I could be really good. So I had positive reinforcement at that time.

Coach P:

Basketball became very important to me, even at sixth grade. And then when I went into high school, Fred Kerber, an incredible man, again, tons of support, which I'm grateful for and basketball has been a part of my life for 44 years if you count my playing and you count my coaching.

Coach P:

And so anyway, I've been very fortunate and Maine is very special to me. It disheartens me that the suicide rate in Maine for young people is quite high. And the statistics that you just read and talked about is very disheartening. And I'm trying to make a difference as much as I can.

Curtis Worcester:

So I know you just mentioned that Maine is a special place to you. I want to kind of turn that around and you hold a very special place in the hearts of many of us here in Maine for your time at the University of Maine as the women's basketball coach. During that time, you also experienced your first manic episode. So are you able to just kind of talk about that a little bit with us and then more generally what was happening in your life at that time?

Coach P:

Yes, it was a very busy time. I was a young coach. I was hired at 26 years old and I worked very hard. I had a lot of pride to get the program... The program had been down and so it was a rebuild type of situation. And I took that to heart and I worked very, very hard. And one year after having my daughter, age 30, which is pretty typical at a time I had my first episode., I've had three episodes, total two at Maine. And one after I left Duke, which no one really knows about, which is fairly interesting to talk about. But my a first episode was a manic episode. I did not know that I, in fact, was in a manic episode. I'm a very upbeat, positive person.

Coach P:

In terms of the team and people at the University of Maine I looked like a very positive, upbeat person coaching the team, dreaming big, talking about final fours with my team and trying to reach the highest level. So from their perspective, I was excited and ready to do great things and Cindy Blodget and all of that.

Coach P:

And the problem was I wasn't sleeping and I didn't tell my husband at first, I just thought, wow, I can get more work done. I don't need as much sleep. I was getting three hours, four hours, not good sleep, but I wasn't unfamiliar with this. I thought it was okay. And so probably by the fourth night of this, this is occurring in a row and my husband sort of became aware to it and we talked about it, but yet I was not approachable about it, if that makes sense.

Coach P:

So basically I escalated into a full blown manic episode, which is in the book, which includes just this whole idea of denial and fighting my diagnosis and having to be admitted. Or I think they called it blue booked into a psychiatric hospital in Bangor and I had to receive care and I had to accept it in my life. And I did accept it finally, I took my medicine. But that in fact led to later my second episode, because at a point I felt that I was fine. I had taken the medicine and I'm great. I'm great. And my doctors of course warned me and said, sometimes if you go off your medicine, something can come back at the worst time possible." And that's exactly what happened into the second episode.

Ben Smith:

And I know we're going to get into lots of things here about the episode and from lots of different angles, Coach P and I can only imagine too, because especially you're 26 years old. You think of all the 26 year olds out there that, "Hey, I'm new in my career. I have a undergraduate, I have a master's degree. I know what I'm doing. I've been at all these programs."

Ben Smith:

All the energy and I'm going to just... This is going to happen. And I think we all kind of want to change the world at 26 anyway. So I can see where it's like from a breaking apart, well, was this just natural energy and enthusiasm or hey, here's manic, almost overconfident in lots of different ways and not even recognizing kind of the energy that's coming out of you. But I want to ask also about U Maine women's basketball, asking about what are some of your favorite memories of coaching that program?

Coach P:

Oh gosh. There are many. Beating Alabama number 10th in the country undefeated with two all Americans. Being down 8-0 to start that game, having to call a timeout and regroup. All the championships. All the conference championships were great, but probably the most memorable is led by Amy Vachon of course the current coach, it's that Stanford victory in breaking through to success in the NCAA tournament and taking Maine to the highest level.

Coach P:

And when we played Old Dominion for a chance to go to the sweet 16, we were in that game to the end, we were on their home floor and we lost by, I don't know, nine or 10 or whatever it was. But we took University of Maine and we showed folks what we were and it was incredible. So not only the Cindy Blodget years, Stephanie Guidi, that whole group, Jamie Cassidy and of course Amy and others. But we had a wonderful group of women that came through at the University of Maine.

Coach P:

And I was there for eight years and very proud of being there for eight years. People asked me about Michigan State. Part of that too, was healing. Taking a new opportunity and getting past the two episodes that I'd had at Maine and leaving at the right time relative to having a wonderful group, Heather Ernest, and those folks coming in for the new coach. Julie Veilleux and others, because Julie coached at Colby. And I must say though, leaving Maine was one of the hardest things I ever did, was leaving and moving on. It was not easy.

Ben Smith:

I bet, especially from the through thread of here you are, obviously you went out of this state and you found kind of the experience and the skills that you needed to bring back to a program like Maine to make it and lead it to be successful. And I also kind of say is from a coach, it's also tough, I'm sure. Because here's the kids and the student athletes that are performing for you and you can't control what happens in a bad bounce and what might happen. But I got to say, even from just a spectator in that era in just watching so acutely was just even all the classes that you had come through that program over your eight years. All the things that were just always stacked against you from a, "Hey, you're going to go play Stanford." Or, "I'm going to go to the NCAA tournament, I'm going to go to California. I'm going to go play across country from Maine and all the travel issues."

Ben Smith:

And of course the weather that we have here is not always the most helpful and most conducive to kind of having a great program. So I can just imagine there's lots of things there. And I want to ask you about lessons that you then took from Maine, as you said about healing personally, going to Michigan State and how tough it is to leave. What lessons did you apply from what you took from that first head coaching job at Maine and applied to Michigan State and Duke?

Coach P:

Oh gosh. So many, I mean so many. Relative to managing people, relative to building a program. When I went to Michigan State, it wasn't at the bottom, but it was down and understanding the patients, the principles. Understanding how to put philosophy into a program and not to go too fast. To make sure the philosophy is in and the expectations are clear, and the consistency of how coaches have to be.

Coach P:

The thing I'm proud about at Michigan State was the biting on so to speak right away, being able to get young people to believe and to dream big, final four, all that good stuff. And then in five years to go for a national championship, literally go from the mid bottom to the big 10. And I want to say proudly to represent those women that did such a thing.

Coach P:

I've not seen that done too many times before. And we are still to this day, the last big 10 team ever to play for a national [crosstalk 00:14:45] basketball. I mean, that has not changed. There has not been a big 10 team since 2005. And that was a neat group of folks. Again, similarly, as I took the best Maine players at Michigan State, we recruited the best Michigan players. And we add added people from Nebraska and some other places, but there really was a template from what came from University of Maine and following through with Michigan State.

Coach P:

And of course the experience when I coached against Alabama Stanford, Western, Kentucky, Georgia, remember, we always had an incredible schedule, North Carolina. So all of that experience, plus getting super healthy with my brain set me up. Because I had seven years, she state, not one issue. Not one problem. I didn't even have a therapist in Michigan because it appeared that I didn't need one. And my psychiatrist was still in Maine. And I dealt with my psychiatrist via phone and then I would visit her once a year in August and come up to Bangor and do that. So again, Maine was special beyond special and gave me that chance to move forward. And I don't know if it's about moving forward, but it's about change and being able to bring something special to Michigan State.

Curtis Worcester:

I like that. So I want to kind of rotate into kind of dive into our mental health, this discussion here and kind of the meat of this conversation. So to start off, can we just spend a little bit kind of defining what it means to have a mood disorder or to be diagnosed as bipolar. And then kind of a follow up there is what does that mean and how does that impact you? Yes.

Coach P:

Mental health is to be celebrated. Mental health impairment is to be understood. And a lot of people use the term mental health, I think in the wrong way, because we're talking about mental health impairment and there's a spectrum of mental health impairment. All sorts of things, mood disorders, anxiety, depression, manic depressive disorder, schizophrenia, all of them are on a spectrum.

Coach P:

I choose to say manic depressive disorder versus bipolar, because I think bipolar has gotten kind of trite, overused and used in places that shouldn't be used. The weather's bipolar today, or my teacher's acting bipolar. And in fact the teacher is not bipolar. And again, it's not who I am. It's part of me. There are triggers, lack of sleep in my case and genetics and they can merge. And sometimes some of these conditions do not get to a point of care.

Coach P:

See, I hit rock bottom. And actually that was a blessing if you take it through to where I was able to, you get to with health. But many times there's just sort of nuances and issues and problems, but people don't get help. Don't want a therapist or a psychiatrist. And that's really sad for me because that's the undiagnosed that live their lives, their entire lives undiagnosed. And self-medicate with alcohol, drugs, food and other things. So there's a lot to it.

Curtis Worcester:

And I want to kind of keep going. So in the intro there, Ben and I shared some statistics on mental health challenges both nationally and in the state of Maine. We want to ask you kind of, what are you seeing recently and specifically as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic, that we're all still in?

Coach P:

Yes. It's well, the Wall Street Journal posted 40% of individuals in our country have some form of depression, anxiety, mood, disorder, and so forth as a result of the incredible challenges of the pandemic. And children and high schoolers and adults, it doesn't discriminate based on age. And that's a scary, scary thing.

Coach P:

We also don't know the effects of what will happen to these young children with masks, how they will develop and what mental health impairment will be for the future. So not only are we dealing with something right in front of us, but we also have incredible conjecture as to what is next. And I'm concerned about that. I know many people are. And the suicide high rates are sky high. We've had a university right here, locally Carolina had two suicides on the same weekend. I've read about suicides in Maine. That just crushed me. Because I'd love to bring every high schooler together every bit of Maine together and speak and share my story.

Coach P:

Not because maybe I could change things directly, but I know that you can kind of divert. You can divert intentions of people that think they're going to take their life. And if you divert, you have an incredible chance for the change of their thought or who they might meet the very next day. And have thoughts and changes. So it's disheartening about the suicide rate.

Coach P:

And I take a pretty hard stance with it. I will say, as a coach, I speak differently than perhaps just a speaker on mental health advocacy. And that is a very aggressive act to take your life. And I think we need to talk more about it. And again, I'm going to sound a little controversial when I say we got to get past Teddy bears. Don't get me wrong. We have to honor anybody who's gone, but we've got to get past the Teddy bear...

Coach P:

I call it the Teddy bear approach, canceling everything. For example, at a university here, again, with a suicide, they canceled classes. And in my opinion, they should have had classes and taken every class to talk about mental health and mental health impairment. And even use the Ted Lasso approach, put the suggestion box, the question box out there, and each class... I'm not saying there had to be psychiatrists in each class. I'm saying each professor would have to do a little bit of homework, a little bit of suggestion or question box, and let's talk about this. That would be more productive than anything else, in my opinion.

Ben Smith:

Well, and Coach P, I agree with that because there's lots of things that I think from, as we're growing up, as we're learning and developing that... Look, life is presenting shared and learned experiences. And I know suicide is such a terrible tragedy, but if we can kind of find any at all silver lining of that is it does present an opportunity to, as you're saying, all of us to really look at this, and look at the signs.

Ben Smith:

And what are the things that are driving us to maybe have those thoughts, or what are the things that maybe lead us to that? And what are some... Maybe that was a negative action to be taking obviously, but what are some positive actions that we could have chosen instead? And why should we not dismiss the negative ones and let's accept these other ones that we should have done. And having those conversations one by one by one, I think what you're saying, instead of just, well, let's go all reflect and just, I'll be by ourselves and silo.

Ben Smith:

Which I know is a natural grieving process for all of us, but to kind of take this as an opportunity and build. Again, which I think is what we're doing today with your story is we could say, "Hey, woe is me? I had a challenge, and I'm just not going to talk about it. I'm just going to sit in it." So I kind of see the parallel what we're doing today too.

Coach P:

Yes. And I always hope that my messaging can be that you can do anything. You can coach in a national championship. You can win championships. There's every opportunity because many people feel when they've been diagnosed with a mental health impairment, that they are therefore limited.

Coach P:

And I had a call from a football player who played in the ACC and he wanted to get in touch with me. And again, I'm very careful about one-on-one dialogue because I'm not a psychiatrist, I'm not a psychologist. And I don't propose to be, but he said, "I want to talk to a coach and you're a coach with this." And I said, "Okay, I'll talk to you a little bit. But you need to promise me that you're going to get help." And the good news was, he was already under the care of a psychiatrist and he had a therapist.

Coach P:

So I was happy about that. And so I said, "So what's your question?" And he said, "I don't want it." And I said, "That's not a question. That's a statement. What do you not want?" He said, "I don't want the diagnosis. I don't want this." And so I said to him, again, coming from a coaching angle, I said, "Wow, you play football, right?" He said, "Yeah."

Coach P:

And I said, "You must not have been very good." And he said, "What? I was really good..." And I said, "Oh, you were a player then. A player." And he said, "Yes, I was a player." I said, "Okay, when do players quit?" And there were silence. And I said, "So you're a player." And he said "I'm a player." And I said, "So this is just another one of those things that you... Another adversity and could be a great story. And another thing that you're going through."

Coach P:

And we talked for a little bit, again, from a coach perspective, he had already been diagnosed. He had a psych, he had therapist. And, I mean, I want to make that clear because I so respect those professions. And anyway, long story short after communications, he ran the Boston marathon.

Coach P:

He got exercise back into his life. He got a routine, he started journaling. He listened to me as a coach, and I was able to coach him on patterns of behavior. And later he confided in me that he had gotten out of a relationship and I'm like, "Well, okay, that's a trigger." Something of that nature. So I've always wanted not a podcast because I don't... But I've always wished I had a radio show where people could call in and ask questions anonymously to a coach or who has this experience. I mean, let's face it. I've had this a long time, 26 years or so. I've got a lot of stories that I don't try to over tell them, but that have given me experience to talk to somebody like this gentleman.

Ben Smith:

Well, and Coach P I want to just highlight a passage that I underlined it. It's one of the last pages of your book. And you said, "Coaching is seeing and teaching young people or any age person to see their future image of themselves we never arrive." And I think that's important because I think that's something Curtis and I, and our team Abby and Wes and Chris and Larry, we do this as, this whole showing that mirror to some, somebody and say, what do you want to achieve? Who are you? What's your purpose? What are important things to you?

Ben Smith:

Because I think what you just said is, hey, here's somebody that says the diagnosis is going to control me and it's going to tell me the things I don't want to be. And I don't want to do. And I'm not going to be that. But to show the mirror in front of them and go, "Okay, well here's you, but the good and the bad."

Ben Smith:

And let's acknowledge both. And then moving forward with purpose and to live your best life. And I think that that's a lot of what you just helped him do there. And again, if you could do that through a radio show in lots of different ways, but I'm sure you've done that for 26 years of coaching is every person of showing them, "Hey here's who you are. We all have limits. We all have things we can't do, but there's lots of things we can do too."

Ben Smith:

And I think sometimes again for the population Curtis and I work with our group, there's a lot of people they've created such hard patterns in their lives that they now think, "Well, this is me and this is who I am and I can't change. And I can't adapt and I can't do the things I always wanted to do."

Ben Smith:

They've kind of resigned themselves to, I just have this life and that's what I have. And this is what my boundaries are. So I want to ask another question here, Coach P. You said that you had a concern that you would torpedo your career prospects if you disclosed your diagnosis, but what worried you most was that you would be a distraction and make it harder for your teams to succeed.

Ben Smith:

And again, as Mainers, we hear that continually from our clients that they don't want to ever bother someone or burden them with their own issues. Because we're private and we help each other. We wave and we're nice, but we don't ever burden everybody. It's like a Mainer trait, I guess, that we have. So I could see where anyone working in any career job would share those concerns about, I don't want to be a distraction and I don't want to make it harder in everybody else. So do you think if you're early in your career today and had just received your diagnosis, do you think that today's day and age would change how you previously approach your diagnosis?

Coach P:

Well, it's about the stage. The public stage, how big the stage is. And the private community and also closer communities. I don't think we've changed enough. I think athletic direct today are always trying to cover for themselves. They don't want any issues. They don't want any problems. They're fundraisers and that's what they do.

Coach P:

So they want coaches and they want no problems. And if they don't have any education on mental health and mental health impairment, then they are reluctant and are still reluctant. So even if I was coaching and starting my career, I would not be able to share it for the same reasons I say in the book. To protect the student athletes, because you can see yourself at a media press conference and the questions being, how are you today, coach? How are you feeling?

Coach P:

And it would be... And unfortunately, that's the way it is right now. One of the things that people, whether it's an athletic director or anybody else, but an employee that when someone is properly diagnosed and has medicine, they are their best self. And when you go through this kind of situation, you're more intuitive. You're a better communicator. You understand human action better. And there's an incredible upside, an upside to a person.

Coach P:

So investing in mental health, across the board companies or wherever. I mean, I just came from L'Oreal as enormous company and their headquarters in New York and they were getting on it and live streaming my talk and really trying to get it out there. Because once you're diagnosed and you go through that process again, you really are more productive.

Coach P:

And that is shown in a book to what happened at Michigan State. I left Maine. I was told by a few people that you're in for a very special time in your life. And it absolutely was one of the most special times in my life in terms of how I felt. So the future image you talked about, that's very, very real. You've got to have it.

Coach P:

But these are things that are important. And again, though, I'm a public figure. So I do know that somebody running for governor in the past put down their Medicaid as lithium, and that's a tag for basically manic depressive disorder. And I remember looking at that saying that is outstanding. So in the public arena say I was governor of Maine. I would share it. I mean, I would've been able to share it and I would've rolled the dice, so to speak on the acceptance of Maine people.

Coach P:

Because I would've been in that position. So again, you've got different stages, you've got different situations, you've got different bosses, different corporation, different cultures. And so you've got to examine those cultures and find those safe spaces. And to me, Secret Warrior, I could not write it or publish it without getting out of Duke. I had to step away from Duke. I mean, as I had one year left on my contract and I could have stayed, but I had to step away and I feel so compelled by it, given the feedback I've been given. On a daily basis, people coming up to me in my community, phone calls, texts, emails, outreach. It's been incredible.

Ben Smith:

Well. And I think that's something we said for being a leader is to say, "Hey I could keep doing this and I could keep coaching for another 20 years and keep doing everything, what I'm doing." But to say, "Hey, I need to be a leader here. And I want to own my narrative. I want to own my story." And I know you talked about a lot in the book about, I'm very protective about my diagnosis. I'm very protective about someone kind of finding this out and using this against me or a recruit, kind of saying this to me. And all of those, which I could see where you started your career in the telephone sales in a telecommunications company. I could see where hey, you follow that career path and all of a sudden you're the top salesperson.

Ben Smith:

And you're driving hundreds of thousands dollars of revenue to that corporation. But as soon as you go, "Hey, I have a manic depressive disorder. I have a diagnosis." And that's kind of going to be tough, in lots of different ways. So I think kind of your story, putting this out there of, "Hey, not only can I be effective in my job, I can be a better version of myself in any job. And I can succeed in the highest magnitude with the highest lens focused on me." And that's important, I think from an example of that role model, but leaders lead. Leaders lead from the front and not from the back. And I think I just applaud you for doing that, because it's so tough to do over and over.

Coach P:

Well, I appreciate that so much. And what's sort of ironic is I'm the best coach I've ever been right now. And sometimes I say, "Geez, Joanne, you should be coaching. Because your balance and your space with all of this that's gone on." But that thought dissolves pretty quickly into you're coaching a wider audience. You're coaching everybody. You're coaching nationally. And I was on some international podcasts, one from Germany, which is totally cool. And I don't know these podcasts. I never know like who you reach. You have no idea and I've done so many podcasts, I can't count. And so many Zooms and these talks from Mississippi State to L'Oreal. I mean, I think that's so funny. I mean two polar opposite places. New York City in Manhattan and Starkville, Mississippi.

Ben Smith:

And Bangor, Maine. And it just who knows where things go. And I think that's the fun part of these recordings is they're evergreen as well. And I just look at, from you and your story is to say, hey, now my story is out there in lots of different ways in this culture, in this society. And it becomes a permanent record, not just permanent record for society, but also hey for your kids. Is to kind of say, hey, here's Mattie and Jack and they can look in their 40 or 50 years in the future. And it's like, well, what was mom going through at this age? And what was she thinking about? And to be able to kind of say that, and I think kind of pushing your story forward for them and their future generations is so important as well.

Coach P:

Yeah. I agree. And my children have been incredible. Of course they were too young for any of it. In terms of when I... Mattie was two when I had my manic episode and then she was four when I had my depressive episode, I believe that's right. And Jack didn't come along... Jack came along at when I left for Michigan State, a very healthy a baby after having to take lithium during that time. And so my children have caught up, of course. And in writing Secret Warrior, they were well into it and understood it. And the irony is I could not have written it without my son. I wrote Secret Warrior prior to the pandemic and then I had to edit it and do so many things with it, but it was my son...

Coach P:

I should say, I wrote it right as a pandemic hit. The confluence of events was extraordinary. And my son helped me with every element of the computer. And he's mentioned in the book as an assistant computer specialist because I... He's a computer science major at Northwestern. And so I'm like Jack, I mean, literally he had to show me, this is how you set up a document on Microsoft Word. Because in coaching all those years-

Ben Smith:

You're focused.

Coach P:

I'm focused. And of course you delegate tasks. And you never delegate relationships. Well, those relationships take a lot of time recruiting, obviously your relationships with the team you have in front of you. So I was really good at not... I'm not going to do like appointments and talks and scheduled them. I used my administrative assistant very well to do those things, which meant I didn't get on the computer much. And at Northwestern, that was so back in the day, I mean, we still used typewriters.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah. I can't say that I've used one of those.

Coach P:

Curtis you're too young.

Ben Smith:

He's too young.

Coach P:

Typewriters with the white out.

Curtis Worcester:

Oh yeah.

Ben Smith:

Yeah.

Curtis Worcester:

Yep.

Ben Smith:

And if you were lucky you had the typewriter with a white out that was built into it, if you were lucky.

Coach P:

No that was before my time.

Curtis Worcester:

So Coach P, I want to keep kind of talking to about your book here for a second. So obviously in Secret Warrior, I think a really difficult part for me to read about was that first manic episode in the fall of '95. As you mentioned, you were a young head coach. You were a mother to a young child, Maddie, very type A personality, so energized. And as you've said, it resulted in not sleeping much at all. And to a point, I think you even said, you thought it was good that you weren't sleeping at first. Because you could just keep working.

Curtis Worcester:

So I want to go back to that moment, but kind of from your husband John's angle. So him spotting your behavior being off and upsetting and obviously his, the ultimate answer after a while was to get you help at a hospital here in Maine. I want to know kind of, what did you learn about John's process and having the hospital help you and why that process wasn't so inclusive to you at the time right now, looking back at it. And how do you think that process would differ today if that kind of severe episode, it were to take place right now?

Coach P:

Yes. You're talking about the survivors. I try to think of them as thrivers because John found a way to thrive in the management of my situation. And I think what benefited John is his background. Chemistry major at North Carolina, masters at Tennessee in economics and a PhD at economics at Auburn. Through academia and through the sciences, he really from day one, it was very upsetting. And what happened in the hospital was so difficult for him in terms of me rejecting him and being furious with him, for what he had done to me.

Coach P:

And that's exactly how you see it. You take things very personal and you lash out to people you love the most. And my sister was there. I lashed out at my sister, "Why did you let him do this to me?" All of that was irrational thoughts and my brain was affected and I was not well, and I was furious.

Coach P:

I was worried about my team. I wasn't as worried about Maddie only because my sister was there. And Maddie was two year old and I knew Maddie was getting great care. I also know that children can sense things even at a young age. So that's kind of creepy to think about, but I felt she was in good hands and, but I worried tremendously about my team, what they knew, what they didn't know. But getting back to John, he just was a warrior in every sense of the word and kind of a man for his time. I guess, I don't know if any people could have been like this because in that day, mental health wasn't even talked about and bipolar manic depressive disorder wasn't known at all. And even when I came back to the team, the word I was told to use was exhaustion.

Coach P:

I mean, there was never a time where the team was about my diagnoses. And I still to this day feel good about that. I feel like that allowed us to move forward when I came back. But John was... He and I could talk together and get the survivor side. Because he had to obviously be a person of faith. And I'm not saying faith... I'm saying the wide ranging faith. I mean, you could be a Christian or you could study Judaism or you could just be an agnostic or whatever, you could be an atheist thinking about karma. So I'm talking about, you got to have some faith. Somewhere. Wherever you grab faith from, because those were such dark, dark times. And I know having Maddie helped John tremendously.

Coach P:

Because Maddie and my sister and John were taking care of Maddie and I know that she had to, she was a bright spirit and playing and doing her thing. And I think that was really critical for John. I think John's family span talking to his older brother having family, reaching out. We have some dear friends that we know for years in Bangor that they knew. So it was a small core of people that actually knew. And in the book, as I discuss Steven and Tabitha King, it's in the book and they were in incredible. And so we had some help there.

Ben Smith:

Well, and I think it's important, Coach P in what kind of is great is you spend all your time building a team and kind of building a team to produce a certain result on a basketball floor. But also that the team that you're building in the relationships is you're saying that you're building that here's the relationships that came back. And those are ones that stuck around you that cared about you. Here's John, that probably loved you more than he loved himself in that moment. And I need to make sure that I care for you. But this needs to happen even though how hard this is probably for him personally, having to be the one to go get you help. And again, but he knew where you had to be and what you had to go.

Ben Smith:

I want to kind of keep rotating here with you Coach P we actually on a previous episode we had an executive coach, Elisa Spain, and she talked about that retirement is really a life pivot. And that really people that people don't go through just like one change in their life. They work and then they just get done. And then they stop working. It's not trading a binge of career for a binge of vacation.

Ben Smith:

That typically that there's pivots that happen over our lives, that we change a little bit of what we do and who we are and how we focus over our years. And we can kind of see, you've already done this from assistant coach to head coach at Maine to Michigan State and to Duke. And now you've made your largest pivot yet. You've left coaching today. You're writing a book. You're speaking to your life experiences. You're creating a foundation. You're talking about Coach P 4 Life, and we'll talk about that in a couple minutes. You're doing all those things. So can you talk about what you've learned about yourself so far from this pivot and what are some future experiences you're interested in exploring going forward?

Coach P:

Oh boy, you hit me at a great time with this. The hardest thing I've ever done by far is leaving coaching and leaving that life and to talk to the group that follows you and talk to you, the people that are listeners, it doesn't matter that I left coaching. For other people they left corporations. It completely goes together.

Coach P:

And I have struggled tremendously, privately with this. As a matter of fact, I had my third episode and my worst episode. And what's interesting it's I can share with you just the chronology of events. July 1, I step away from Duke. September 18th, I get a cancer scare. So I have to get a hysterectomy. That's a problem because that shakes up your hormones and things like that. October 18th, my father passes.

Coach P:

And so then I try to recover from all that, which is normal stuff. But even though it's normal stuff, sleep is needed. As my psychiatrist always says, "Okay, you can talk to your therapist about that because she's so cool, but I do sleep. I do what the chemicals in your brain are doing."

Coach P:

And so my sleep patterns, my routine was disrupted. My sleep patterns were different, although I was sleeping and I was exercising. Matter of fact, I was exercising. And I want to tell the listeners that that probably saved me for some time. Meaning I was making it through August, September, October, November, December, January, February, March, April, May all the way around. And what's interesting when I left my routine, got off some exercise, because I went north on vacation in Michigan. I was on vacation when I had my worst episode.

Coach P:

And the reason why I want to share that, I guess might be obvious is that this stuff is strange. The nuances are challenging. Most people would think that, wow, you're golden. You're retired and you're on vacation and how possibly can you have a difficulty? And it was another manic episode.

Coach P:

And I had to cope with that and I had wonderful support and I did. And obviously we knew a lot more about it because we had gone through it, but just think of this whole thing twice at the University of Maine, which was years ago. I mean 30 years ago, long time ago. Absolutely no problems with impairment all the way around until June as a 566 year old. That speaks to the fact of acceptance, knowing about mood disorders. And your journey. And if you are diagnosed to do something about it and to remember that it can still be there.

Coach P:

And so again, getting back to your listeners, I empathize in so many ways and I will challenge them all to routine, to exercise, to better eating and to reaching out, to journaling, to looking for hobbies and so on.

Curtis Worcester:

Well, before I move forward, I want to thank you so much for sharing that story with us. I know, obviously we didn't know about that third episode and I don't think a lot... Based on the way you kind of prefaced it I know it's not in the book. So I want to thank you for sharing that with us. I want to kind of keep going on our conversation here.

Curtis Worcester:

And so as a successful coach you worked very hard to not only coach and do well at coaching, but you also identified skills and players and motivations necessary to win games of basketball. So after reading your book you've done the same around you and with your mood disorder. And so I want to ask kind of what advice would you give to someone, either with a mental illness or someone who loves somebody with a mental illness and they want to create their own winning team around them. How would you kind of advise them to kind of do that successfully?

Coach P:

Well, again, it can be whatever you're comfortable with in terms of the team that you form. And the team you form must include medical therapist, psychiatrist, you must have medical. And I know there are many issues in our country regarding medical. I don't think we have time to talk about all of that.

Coach P:

But I will say that you've got to be truthful and honest. You've got to listen to those that love you and are around you. Whether it's a partner, whether it's your immediate family, whoever it is. And there has to be some good talks about where we are, where we're going, what we're trying to do, and then put it all together. And I think journaling plus that honesty with family plus a psychiatrist plus a therapist, if you can afford it.

Coach P:

And that's a whole other issue. But just building exercise, if have a wonderful group that you can exercise with. I see this wonderful group at the Y where I swim, there's 20 women in the pool doing pool workout, that's more affordable. The YMCA is more affordable. But you've got to seek out all the people that can help you because sometimes it can be a swim instructor of a program and that program. And so you've got to seek out everyone that can help with fitness and be a part of that mental fitness and physical fitness, plus the team you build.

Ben Smith:

I like it. And I want to ask another question, Coach P. So again, where, if you're thinking about yourself here. I guess, what does it mean to care for someone who has a mood disorder or other mental health challenges. For example, so say fast forward for you and a child or grandchild has recently had a mental health episode. How would you advise someone directly caring for a younger person to approach this challenge?

Ben Smith:

Because I'm thinking about, and we're hearing this a lot of grandparents that are now absorbing grandchildren either from they've been affected by the opioid challenges. Or they're taking in kids and grandkids that they're experiencing their own challenges. We just opened up in our introduction about how we're seeing more and more challenges with kids and adolescents. How would you approach that if you were presented with that challenge.

Coach P:

Some of it will be similar to what I've said before, besides the love and care of understanding, listening of course, finding what passions that person has. For example, if they're artist or writing or what they're interested in and meet them at that place. If it's video games, play video games with them, meet them at that place. And when you meet somebody at where they're at, you can grow past it, which includes routine again, exercise, activity, involvement, and cooking. I mean, whatever can happen if I'm an older person, a grandparent or whomever, I've got instincts and I need to use them. But those are some of the actions I can do. And then slowly try to get to where we can communicate about the issue. Now, the opioid, gosh, that stuff is beyond... I mean, it's hard to even comprehend that could happen.

Coach P:

And then of course, you've got the medical care, you've got to get it in there. I mean, that's why we've got to push, we've got to push about more care. Mental health care. In our country, there's a big pivot for our country and that pivot is healthcare. And I'm an apolitical person. Coaches are that way because we can't get involved in all of that really when you're a public figure.

Coach P:

And so what I would say is mental health impairment and mental health is not political. I don't care where you come from. I don't care what party you represent. And I think our country has gotten so polarized to the point of not being able to do stuff and understand what is important. And so a lot of private people like me are trying to speak out and raise a red flag.

Coach P:

And I see that with Simone Biles. She's coming out with all sorts of initiatives for what she went through with gymnastics. And there's one thing, a point I have to make about this. When you have impairment, it is not about making up an excuse. The reality is it's a very real thing and it must be dealt with. And I think there are some in our country that are sort of like, "Well I'm not sure that's really what that is."

Coach P:

I mean, I saw some of the comments with some on Biles and to not know, to not remember what gymnastics gals went through. And to not understand that could play out at any time. And usually it's when you have to do the biggest thing. I mean to go back to Simone Biles, as an example, I said to John, when she said I will represent all the women that went through that horrible experience for their lives.

Coach P:

I said to my husband, "She is in trouble." Before the Olympics because there is no way you can carry that kind of responsibility burden. And she looked like she had the weight of the world on her shoulders. And I just applaud her so much for what she he did and is doing currently. And of course there are people that could never understand that. She stepped away from the Olympics. I mean, I was obviously passionate about understanding what she had gone through. I don't know her personally, but you can watch from afar and I could relate as a mentally impaired person of the past, I should say.

Ben Smith:

Well, and Coach P I want to ask just kind of in summation kind of going forward for our listeners. I'd love for you just to tell us a little bit about Coach P 4 Life, the work that you're doing right now and how you're speaking out. Because obviously you got the book right now, but all you're doing lots of talks. Can you just kind of give us a little bit of an update on where you see this going for you?

Coach P:

Well, I'm not totally sure. Coach P 4, the number 4, Life is my social tag. For all my social and coaches always do things with purpose. And so Coach P that's obvious, but 4 represents I'm a final four coach. And that's something I'll always cherish. And life represents living life, not choosing to end your life. So that's where Coach P 4 Life comes from on the social. So we're working with that.

Coach P:

Then there's the Coach P 4 Life, LLC, that feeds into Secret Warrior foundation in the future. Not currently. Because we have to build, but Secret Warrior foundation for brain health. And so that's what I hope. If I could wave a wand, I would continue to do podcasts. I would continue to speak. I would have a radio show. And I wish there was some corporation, somebody out there listening or knows somebody because I've put it out there.

Coach P:

I put my story out there and I think I've also done enough podcasts and things like that for someone to see what I'm representing. And so in a dream world, somebody with a lot of resources says, "We're going to do this and we're going to support this." And then it would be a question answer you could call anonymously. I would have the information for the mental health hotlines and everything that's needed.

Coach P:

And I could encourage, because the biggest problem with mental health impairment is certainly not diagnosing it. And even when it's diagnosed people not taking their medicine. And then of course healthcare, yes, I would like to be a part of any initiative and be testifying in Congress or anywhere that it's not where it needs to be coverage and what happens. And so we have a long way to go there.

Ben Smith:

That's awesome.

Curtis Worcester:

So we have kind of a wrap up question for you, Coach P. So obviously the name of our show is the retirement success in main podcast. So we like to ask everyone kind of, how are you going to find your personal retirement success when you kind of get to that pivot, if you will, in your life?

Coach P:

Well, here's the key, never retire. In your mind, never retire. Yes, you've said it's a pivot, but we're living life and we're not done. And just because we left a company. That's great. Tutor a young person, volunteer at your church, be a speaker or a coach or a advocate, or have a book club. I mean take your pivot, but take the mentality. I'm going to call it the no retirement mentality.

Curtis Worcester:

All right.

Coach P:

Because we don't stop. Just like anything you can't stay, you just can't stay without motion. We're about motion. So I hope everybody listening can feel that energy and find their way to something exciting and never ever retire.

Curtis Worcester:

I like that.

Ben Smith:

Well, Coach P I think those are some great words. I appreciate you sharing that with us. And I know on behalf of Curtis and I, it is such an honor and a privilege to have you on our show, talking about mental health challenges. Your story, and how we all can learn from it. So we really can't thank you enough. It's been just a great honor and we'll hope to catch you next time.

Coach P:

That sounds great. Thank you, Ben. Thank you Curtis.

Ben Smith:

So I have to put a shout out there. Our good friend listener of the show, Barbora Higgins was the one that connected us to Coach P. So Barbora has actually been a good friend of mine for some time. Lives in a similar neighborhood as me and was an assistant coach for Coach P. So she said, "Hey, Coach P my friend in Ben and Curtis, they have a really great show and I think it would be a great mix." So what a nice thing that Barbara did for us there and connecting us with Coach P, because she is a delight. That was a fantastic conversation to have. So Curtis, what was the takeaway that you had from today?

Curtis Worcester:

I think honestly the whole episode. I mean this whole conversation, Coach P's book. I highly recommend to anyone and I know we'll make it clear of how people can get their hands on it here in a little bit, but just the overall and this mental health discussion. And how important it is to raise awareness and to have acceptance and to get past the stigmas and we're not going to make any progress just as a society in helping people.

Curtis Worcester:

And we're helping ourselves, if nobody talks about it, you got to make a plan. I think Coach P did a great job, really obviously being vulnerable and sharing her stories. It's incredible what she's done and just really kind of using her experiences to help in this next phase of her coaching. Honestly, I know she said she's done coaching, but she's still coaching and she's just coaching a lot more people. So I think it was such a great conversation, obviously she's fantastic. And just I mean, if I don't think I could pick one thing to take away other than just the importance of that conversation we had.

Ben Smith:

I think she... And the statistic, I know we read in the intro is 45% of adults received no mental health treatment. And that's the unacceptable statistic here is finding out, as you're saying, hey, raise my hand. I just need help. And going, and talking to the medical side, talking to your support group and finding ways to just better ourselves.

Ben Smith:

And she said, I'm the best version of myself that I've been even acknowledging where my manic depressive disorder is. Figure out kind of that balance in the right medication. I'm the best person, she says, I'm the best coach that I've ever been today. And I think that's something where I think she's saying on the football player him raising his, I don't want that diagnosis.

Ben Smith:

Versus, hey, accepting the diagnosis. And I know what we're talking is accepting and conquering mental health challenges today is like, once I kind of accept it and I find the team around to build, and I find ways to cope. Man, now the future's unlocked for it. And I think that's a really important thing. So I just want to take a second and kind of highlight a few resources that Coach P is sharing with us.

Ben Smith:

One is, as we said, the book, and I'm holding that up for the screen right now, for those that are watching or listening is that you can get this on Amazon. We're going to have the link to buy this on Amazon. If you want to check it out again, it could be Kindle by the way, it be electronic or a dead tree book version of it there.

Ben Smith:

Coach P has a website. It's at CoachP.org. And also what we're going to put her Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn pages there for you to follow. We reached out to our friends at North Light Health Acadia hospital. They were able to give us some really good resources about learning some more.

Ben Smith:

So if you want to go a little further here and hear a little bit more what's out there in Maine and some things to learn about maybe before, if you know someone that needs help that before you make a call, that that's all there in all the quick references. So we are going to share all that on our show notes. So if you go to blog.guidancepointllc.com/57, to find more of our conversation with Coach P and again, conquering mental health challenges. So thankful to have this show today, again, we talked about cognitive decline and impact on your finances last episode.

Ben Smith:

So kind of a good, I think, especially in winter in Maine. And holidays are really tough on all of us. So I think there's lots of theming here that I think makes sense for the release that we're having here. So really appreciate everyone tuning in. If you're the first time that you've tuned into us. Well, hopefully you go back to the library and find a few more shows that you might kind of pick something up onto. We're really excited to continue doing this podcast for you. If you have any comments or suggestions, I'd love to hear from you, but we will catch you next time. Take care.