Transcript 

Ben Smith:

Welcome everyone to the Retirement Success in Maine podcast. My name is Ben Smith. I'm joined by my colleague, the Starbucks to my Dunkin Donuts, Curtis Worcester, how you doing today?

Curtis Worcester:

I'm doing well, Ben, doing well. I have a fresh Starbucks right next to me here too. So that was good.

Ben Smith:

Well, we had this whole conversation about how much coffee we drink today. So I figured this is going to be a topical way to introduce our show.

Curtis Worcester:

That's perfect.

Ben Smith:

And I know one thing that our team, we've been looking at podcasts and all the topics we've been reviewing and trying to look for in the future, one thing we've been looking for really is a guest that can speak to the relationship that the state of Maine has with our aging population. And I know we've touched here and there, right? We've got very laser focused on specific areas and what systems are actually happening. And we talked with Marty Groman, especially for energy and kind of things like that, where it's really helpful to identify very specific areas, but to look at the whole system, let's look at the whole structure. Let's look at what's currently in place and identifying really and addressing the needs of today's seniors and retirees.

Ben Smith:

So where are the gaps and what needs to be addressed? How is the federal government state legislature, and Maine's local communities working together to help today's and hopefully tomorrow's aging populations. And then also, obviously in the state of Maine, it's good to look inside the state, but what's happening with other states? Are there other states that are more of a role model out there of how our state can support our aging population? So that was really the premise of today's show.

Ben Smith:

So our next guest is the executive director of the Maine Council on Aging and she leads and manages a broad, multidisciplinary network of more than 120 organizations, businesses, and community members working to ensure we can all live healthy, engaged, and secure lives as we age in our homes in community settings. In this role, she advances statewide public policy initiatives, provides leadership within Maine's aging networks and supports Maine's legislative caucus on aging. Her areas of specific focus includes housing, which we've talked about a lot, transportation, workforce. I know it was a Barbara [Babkirk 00:02:45] thing on talking workforce, aging in place, which we hear from our clients a lot of-

Curtis Worcester:

All the time.

Ben Smith:

The biggest goal they have is they want to age in place and be independent as long as they can, and also care across all settings. She leads the Maine healthy aging initiative and the tri-state learning collaborative on aging, a regional learning collaborative aimed at increasing the collective impact of community driven aging initiatives. She annually organizes statewide and regional events that advance aging policy. She's also co-authored Building a Collaborative Community Response to Aging in Place, Maine's Blueprint for Action on Aging. She's a licensed Maine attorney and has worked for 17 years in the Maine office of the attorney general. Last but not least, she also graduated from the University of Maine School of Law, go Black Bears and the University of Maine at Amherst. So I'd like at this point to welcome Jess Maurer to the Retirement Success in Maine podcast. Jess, thanks for coming on.

Jess Maurer:

Thanks for having me. I sound very busy.

Ben Smith:

Yeah. Well, in a lot of great ways and I know Jess, we've reached out and I'm so thankful, Curtis, I are both are very thankful that you come on and share some of your time with what we've done over our show. And I'm really hoping that our show today together with you, you can really lend a really good light on what's really happening in the state and kind of go, "Hey, here's where we're doing well. And here's some opportunities that we're working on to improve." I'm really excited about that conversation today, so, but I want to get in, I know one of the things we always do with our show is to learn to little bit about you. So I'd love to hear about, Jess, your background and how you ultimately found your calling in public service.

Jess Maurer:

Well, I guess I will say as corny as it sounds, I've always wanted to help people. And that's why I went to law school and I was promised that that would be something that would, I would lose that idealistic view, but I never have actually. And obviously I worked for the office of the Attorney General, so working on behalf of the public really is my first and long career in that sector. But the last seven years that I was in the office of the Attorney General, I was actually a special assistant Attorney General and I worked directly with Attorney General, then Steve Rowe and then later Attorney General, Janet Mills, who's now the governor and was a special assistant doing public policy work really at the federal and state level. And I realized that that was way more fun than litigating.

Ben Smith:

Don't blame you there.

Jess Maurer:

Yeah, I don't ... Yeah, exactly. And so I actually left the office to run Steve Rowe's campaign for governor, which was really a lot of fun. I ran a primary campaign and that was a really terrific way by the way to see the state and to learn so much about Maine's people and industries. And so I find that that was a real gift. I would never do it again, but I would do it ... If I had to do it over, I'd do it over, but then I would never do it again.

Ben Smith:

Right. I hear you.

Jess Maurer:

Yeah, absolutely. But anyway, so that was really ... I learned my love of doing really advocacy and public policy in my time in the AG's office, I really wanted to do something. When I was out to further particular cause and I worked a lot in the area of aging and that job came up and it just worked out perfectly for me. So that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Ben Smith:

Okay. I like it. Well, talk to us about the Maine Council on Aging. I'd love to hear a little bit about the origin story there, how it was started, and also about building this network of organizations that can discuss and support aging in the state of Maine, because I was on the board of literacy volunteers in Maine and trying to collaborate even literacy volunteers, local groups, and everyone's got territories and everyone's got their own ideas. We do it this way and we don't do it that way. So I know just from a organizational perspective and trying to build cohesion and consensus around what ideas are out there and where we should advance, I'm really interested in just all of that together and how that was going.

Jess Maurer:

Sure. Well, so the Maine Council on Aging started from a meeting, a very intentional meeting where actually AARP Maine, the policy director of AARP Maine and myself at the time, I was the executive director of the Maine Association of Area Agencies on Aging doing policy work on behalf of older Mainers. And we looked around and said, there's really nobody out here in Maine talking about these 30,000 foot issues, collectively. And so we have the nursing home lobby who's at the legislature day in and day out asking for money for more nursing homes, more money for nursing homes and the home care lobby asking for more money for home care, and Area Agencies on Aging, asking for more money for Meals on Wheels and family caregiver services and is talking about sort of these bigger pictures, right?

Jess Maurer:

The bigger picture, which is really very stunning, which is we're living longer than ever before. As we age we're finding we have new needs. We're the first ... this sort of older cohort we have right now is the first generation that is really witted to staying in their homes and if not in their homes, in their communities, and yet we haven't done a damn thing about it. I mean, like let's just be honest. So we have a completely shifting sort of view of how we want to age and it doesn't at all match what we have and what we have, right, are significant workforce shortages, housing mismatches, no public transportation, no geriatricians, no specialty care for older people. And so we said, we literally brought 30, 35 organizations together and said, "Let's have a conversation about where we are in the world and do we believe that there is a gap in the conversation about aging in Maine," and the answer was universally, yes, there is a gap.

Jess Maurer:

And do we think that we should come together to create an organization that would be bigger than all of us collectively and would help spur that conversation? And the answer again was yes, absolutely. And so we were founded with, I don't know, something like 39 organizations signed on at the time after that meeting. We created all the bylaws. I will say that the key, when you were saying, it's hard to put a network together, the key here was understanding that nursing homes and home care folks had not been in the same room together for a long time, and healthcare was far, far away.

Jess Maurer:

And so our idea was that we would build something that had sort of those three pillar elements for, if you consider sort of aging services, the AAAs or community action programs, but this idea that if we brought those forces together for a common purpose and we had those people governing, right? So we have always since 2012 until right now, have had the leaders of home care and the leaders of nursing home care sitting at that table, because we said, "Look, we have to stop saying, I need money, and you're not as worthy. We have to link arms together and say, we need more money. All of us collectively need more money. We need more resources to make sure that we can meet the needs of older people in Maine. And I have to show up for you and you have to show up for her. And she has to show up for me." And that's what we built.

Jess Maurer:

We have never left a consensus model. We are on a consensus model. And so for instance, like three years ago, when the home care initiative came up, one of our members was the lead organization promoting that home care referendum. And two of our members were the lead opposition to that. And we took no position and managed to stay in that no position world. And the nice part about it was is that we were right there as an organization to pick up where we needed to go for the next iteration. So, people can criticize us for that as well. But we really, we have said, "Look, we need a middle road here and we need common ground." And that's how we find it by looking at the bigger issues. So we've grown obviously from 39 organizations to 120 organizations now. And now we're really diverse. I mean, we started with aging services and healthcare, and now we include banks and the Maine women's lobby and the Natural Resources Council of Maine and organizations you wouldn't necessarily think would be a part of our work, but we are really aligned with so much of that.

Jess Maurer:

If we want to address climate concerns, we have the eighth oldest housing stock in Maine in the country, and most of those old houses have older people living in them. And a lot of them don't have enough money to weatherize their homes. And so we can do a win-win if we could figure out how to help older people who are lower income weatherize their homes all over Maine through some sort of energy core. I mean, these are real things we need to talk about. And so that's where I say, we went from really talking about some core aging issues a decade ago to now really having some broader conversations as well, trying to align the core things that we want to get done with what else what's happening in the rest of the state as well.

Ben Smith:

Yeah. And I think what ... You're bringing up some really good points because when you look at, even for example, not having weatherized homes and Marty made a point in one of our energy episodes about, hey, that person buys a full tank of oil and it's not weatherized. And that tank of oil goes through much more rapidly. So that level of cost to continue to fill that tank and not getting kind of that yield out of that tank of oil, so now they're burning through their resources and their money and yeah, they got to stay, they want to stay home, but it's not really affordable because they're not weatherized and now they have to go to some other place. So it just all that kind of these core problems, all reverberate through lots of different systems, lots of different organizations, lots of different programs.

Ben Smith:

And I think that's why, again, just from an outsider's perspective, Jess of, I think that's why it is just very important to have a place that we're talking about aging, we're talking about all those effects and how we're all being impacted and affected because all these things are really important, and I think humbly in our show, we've tried to do a little of this and that's why I think it's kind of great to kind of get your expertise in this today. So I want to ask just another question about you, Jess here, and you kind of touched on this a little bit, but so what do you love the most about your work today? What's the thing that really like you get up in the morning, you're really passionate about? You're like, "I'm really excited to get to do this today."

Jess Maurer:

I mean, I think, I think it's just about the opportunity in the moment that we're in. I mean, I think you can tell, I'm pretty passionate about this. And I say all the time, we are pioneers on a new frontier. We are literally developing the next iteration of our society right now. We just don't happen to know it. And that's pretty powerful to me I mean, we are developing solutions. And so, I really think that we are only limited by our own inability to think outside the box or to throw away the box. And so, on my best days I love my job and I think it's really exciting work and it's just, it's about culture change and I know change can be really painful. And actually we'll talk about that in a little bit, I know we will. But it's also needed and nobody ever changes until you absolutely need to. And we are at that point, we're at that tipping point here in Maine. And so it's fun to be in that place in the room thinking about, so what's that look like?

Ben Smith:

Yeah. Nice. So I want to ask now kind of going to, because there's so much we got to cover today in terms of this concept of the state of the state of aging in Maine. So I want to kick off with a question for you, Jess. So I want to start with all right, Maine has the highest percentage, that's 27% of people 60 years of age or older, of any state or territory. And that's just 2018, so I know there's lots of data there, but let's start with that. So that's 2018 American community survey by the US Census Bureau.

Ben Smith:

So, and of course we see this anecdotally, right. I know Curtis and I are more in central Maine. We have our colleagues in southern Maine as well, but we see this really with younger adults too, with a lot of colleges, universities and where we are leaving the state in search of educational and economic opportunities while also seeing older adults staying or coming into the state for retirement, as I think that a lot of people have this fond memory of Maine and summering and the things that we do. But so there just seems to be a short supply of available workforce and then also care partners to meet the needs of Maine's aging population. So I guess when you have that friction, right, as you have this mismatch of there's a need and there's really not a supply, so what's the long term solution here and what can be done in the short term to band aid this structural problem?

Jess Maurer:

Yeah. So can I, if you don't mind, I'll just poke a little hole in your premise.

Ben Smith:

Yeah, sure.

Jess Maurer:

Which is that younger people are leaving Maine and of course they are, and they're leaving Montana and they're leaving New York City. I mean young people leave where they grew up to go somewhere else because they just don't want to be around their parents anymore. Let's be honest.

Ben Smith:

Sure, yeah,

Jess Maurer:

Come on.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah. Right.

Ben Smith:

Let's be real.

Jess Maurer:

So let's be real. But Charlie Colgan, I don't know if you remember him, but he's a former state economist and he worked with us actually at the very first start of the work we did in 2013 and we had him do some work for us and then talk about it. And he said, and I will never forget this, "If we had put an ankle bracelet on every child born since 1980, such that they had been unable to leave the state, we would be exactly in the same workforce shortage." We haven't had enough babies since the '80s to replace the number of workers that we knew since the Boomers started, we knew how many they were, how many jobs they were taking up and what, the kind of hole they would leave when they began to retire or leave the workforce.

Jess Maurer:

So, we like to pretend this is some sort of surprise, but it's not. And it's really about the fact that we haven't had enough babies for the last 40 years that we're in the situation we're in. So I just want to be really clear about what the problem is because we're going to talk about some discomfort now. There is no quick fix.

Ben Smith:

Well, and Jess, I'll lay another point though because two ways to get population increase. One is what you said, babies, but two is immigration. Right. And I'm not trying to get political in any way.

Jess Maurer:

Oh no.

Ben Smith:

But it's to say, "Hey, the immigration has positive effects." I know we have negative connotation to that too. But getting people in and getting skilled people in, especially to come in and do certain jobs, that's another way to kind of solve some of that as well.

Jess Maurer:

No question, no question. I mean, there's just what, four, well, there's actually just three components to population, right? It's births, deaths, and in migration out migration. Migration. So we haven't had enough births, so necessarily we need more in migration. So you're absolutely right, and the key here though, is that what we are experiencing in Maine? I think it's important to have some level setting, is that we are at the very tip of the aging wave in America, but we are not at the very tip of the aging wave in the world. And so Germany and Japan have gone ahead of us. They have already gone through this painful experience of not having enough young people to meet their needs, of going through care crisis workforce. We have a lot to learn from others. And so we also have, I could think an obligation to help the rest of the country.

Jess Maurer:

So I bring that up because again, we are the oldest, but New Hampshire is, Vermont's next, New Hampshire's after that. And Tennessee, I mean, parts of upstate New York all around the country, we're seeing this phenomenon of older folks with a smaller population of workforce. And that means that all those other states and places want workers too, whether we're talking about people, new to our country or people from Arizona moving to Maine, we're all competing for the same people. So I will tell you while I completely agree that immigration and we need more immigration nationally and to this state, is not going to solve the workforce shortage in any short period of time. It is not a short term fix. We have to focus on it. Our state is not welcoming to people of color. Our state is not welcoming to people who are different.

Jess Maurer:

We're very rural. We don't have the things millennials want, which are walkable downtowns and public transportation and [crosstalk 00:20:47] I mean, so let's be clear. I mean, people need to want to move here too. It's not like it's the only option in the country, right. There are 49 other options. And so we do have to think about who we are as a people. And as we think about that migration conversation, but I'm not going to talk about that because I totally agree, but I actually don't see it as a solution. It is the long term solution. But it's not even a remotely short term solution or anywhere near a quick fix or a bandaid. So I'll say from our workforce, I think the first thing I'll say is we have to accept what I just said, that our workforce is our workforce.

Jess Maurer:

The people we have in the state right now are our workers and we can do all we can do to compete with other states and other countries to get people to move here, but that is a hard sell. And so we need to look at the workforce we have, we need to prioritize the jobs we need people to be in. Right. So, and that, and I'm here selfishly talking about the needs of older people, but I'll tell you, these are childcare workers, emergency service providers, healthcare providers, direct care workers. We need people, grocery store clerks. I mean, when we need food production, right? Yeah. These are the ... So you think about the core workers we need to prioritize those workers. And then we need to incentivize those workers, taking those jobs over restaurant jobs and over Walmart.

Jess Maurer:

And what I'm saying is not popular because what I'm suggesting is that we probably need to rightsize, not having ... and I could go down the list, 100 restaurants in Brunswick, Maine, just where I live, it's probably not going to be sustainable to have that many, that kind of infrastructure even, when you think about sort of back offices. Even when you're talking about aging services, there's going to have to be consolidation. We're seeing consolidation in healthcare. We just don't have enough people to take the jobs we have, which means we're going to have to figure out how to rightsize sort of our organizations and our jobs and how we work collaboratively together. Obviously we're also going to have to think about using technology in different ways, which is what other, what Japan and Germany have both done in relation to modernizing some of the way their workforce engages.

Jess Maurer:

It's also an all hands on deck thing, I just want to say, we talk a lot and I know you just mentioned Barb Babkirk, we actually need every person who has left the workforce, who can work to go back to work. We need to be talking about that. It's not just good for you to go back to work, by the way, it is good for you to go back to work and doing something you love to do. Nobody wants you to go back and do something you hated doing for your entire career. If you don't want responsibility, don't go into a management job, go mail, pack boxes at LL Bean. Trust me, they need you.

Jess Maurer:

The thing is, is it's almost like a civic duty kind of thing. We need everybody to work. That's what's going to keep our eco, our economic engine going. Whether it's working in the local convenience store in your small little town a couple of days a week. If it's just that, that might be the difference between keeping that convenience store open or not, with our current workforce shortage. So, there are a lot of solutions, and there isn't one quick one, but that's my thinking about it.

Ben Smith:

Love it.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah, that was good. So I want to kind of keep going here, Jess. So there are now over 100 communities in Maine that are a part of AARP's network of age friendly states and communities. And in 2020, the entire state of Maine joined that network. And this led to government agencies and more than 50 organizations and individuals creating Maine's first age friendly state plan, which is to improve engagement, communication, employment, financial security, health, housing, recreation, and transportation for older Mainers. So would you mind just kind of sharing with us sort of what that plan covers and what that plan hopes to accomplish?

Jess Maurer:

Yeah, sure. I think it's important to understand that the age friendly movement is so critical because it is the core player, right? Whether it's an age friendly community, now there's age friendly health systems, there's age friendly university's and we're talking about an age friendly state and at the core of that, and it's at the governor's signature, the state of Maine has committed to being more thoughtful about the way it engages older people in the very broadest sense. And what it's really saying is we're going to break down governmental silos and we are going to be committed to working with other agencies and other organizations outside of the state to really have a holistic view about aging in Maine.

Jess Maurer:

And as I say, often, aging is not just about health or needing services. And yet the Department of Health and Human Services has always been charged with taking the lead around aging. And in some ways, and I mean no offense to anybody, but it's a little bit offensive, right. I mean, because it's also about the Department of Labor and the Department of Economic Community Development and Maine housing and the Department of Transportation. And so, we are going down this road to say, "Yes, okay, well, DHHS is going to lead this effort, but all of those organizations are going to be involved." And the reality is, I mean, sort of the process here is that those agencies and agriculture and a couple of other ones, they're meeting collectively all the time now talking about the work that they do and how they can align their investments and pull levers, sort of collectively to sort of make sure that we are capitalizing on the value of older people, right.

Jess Maurer:

We're really embracing all that older people have and are bringing to the state, but are also collectively thinking about their needs as a systemic view, not an individual need. And then they're coming out to us and saying, "Well, this is what we're going to do. We want you to do with us." And so that's really what this age friendly plan is. There's not a lot of meat on their bones. I'm sure if you've read it, it's a 70 page document. It's very good, but there's not a lot of meat. If you go and read it, it doesn't say who's going to do what and how they're going to do it and under what timeframe. We haven't created a strategic plan behind it or action plan behind it, but those are all really laudable. And each of us, I mean, so we are meeting now quarterly as a stakeholder group with the state, they're doing their work. They're asking us to do our work, to do it collaboratively with them sometimes. Sometimes we're doing our own thing, which we'll talk again about in other ways.

Jess Maurer:

But it really is a recognition of keeping. I think it's like keeping the gas pedal depressed is what this is all about. It's not going away. We have a plan. We have state government meeting on a regular basis talking about this plan. They're bringing us all together to talk about this plan. We're making progress and there's no question about that. But that's what the beauty of this age friendly concept is, is that the organization is taking responsibility for being intentional about engaging older people and sort of the demographic.

Ben Smith:

Yeah. Well, and, Jess, I just want to add to that too, is it feels like selfishly for all of us, it's not like we can look at this plan or look at what's happening in the state of state aging here, is to look at this and go, well, that's not me, right? I'm not ... That's some other stakeholder group and that's not really impactful to me. Well, except for we all have various roots where we are today and those roots are going to be strong, whichever, for a lot of different reasons.

Ben Smith:

And so even if you're not in the population that, that cohort we're talking about, the older cohort today, you're going to be there at some point. And having structures and infrastructure and programs and, and thoughtfulness about how you're going to be treated one day, it just seems very logical and kind of an easy thing to agree to, honestly, from my ... I know I'm being Pollyanna maybe here, but I think from all those lenses that goes, hey, I think starting with, let's look at this population looking at needs that aren't being addressed and all that. So I want to pivot to this question of-

Jess Maurer:

Let me tell you a quick story first.

Ben Smith:

Yeah, please.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah.

Ben Smith:

Love it.

Jess Maurer:

Because I'll tell you a quick story. Before we had an age friendly state committee. I served on, I still serve on the public transit advisory council to DOT, Department of Transportation. And I work really collaboratively with Maine Housing around development of affordable housing for older people. And for years, I'm sitting at one or those two tables saying, "You really should talk to the Department of Transportation. You really should talk to Maine housing." And it took me years to ... and then they all got in a room together and they were all like, it was fascinating. It's like, oh, you mean, when we approve this design that doesn't accommodate a bus coming under the shelter, because it's not high enough. And the buses have to ... I mean, like all of a sudden they were like, "Oh, we have all these things we could do. We could actually talk to each other just about design," right. Just about the design of housing as it relates to public transit. So it's a perfect example. And so that's what's happening now. Now I hear all the time, all the time I hear about these same actors and many others are sitting in rooms together talking about things. And it's just, that part is just beautiful.

Ben Smith:

And I think that's where again, we've been kind of privately or selfishly, very lucky here, is having, I don't know, 52, 53, 54 chances to discuss aging in whatever way, shape, or form. These are conversations that we have, we never had or not ever heard people address. So the more that people are kind of doing this and the more we're kind of creating spotlights, and again, we're nowhere near to your level there, Jess. But I think that's something where it's just really neat that, hey, this is a group that's having a spotlight on them and saying, "Here's ways that we can make this better." So I want to ask you a question though, of let's kind of maybe look backwards at the state of Maine and maybe you could highlight to us areas that collectively Maine has historically done really well in supporting older Mainers. What are we good at, I guess is the question and none, and nothing maybe could be an answer, but what do you think?

Jess Maurer:

Yeah. That one ... So I would say the best part about Maine just generally is that we haven't lost a strong sense of community and we are made up of small towns. I mean, you know that right? I mean, we have the most rural state in the country. That is the beauty. And so over the last decade, what Maine has done really well is support the development of what are aging and community initiatives. And that can be a formal age friendly community, which is a formulaic kind of thing. But we have about 130 of our 500 cities and towns that have some sort of, either organic or very intentional community initiative that are doing all kinds of brilliant things.

Jess Maurer:

One of the things I like best when I first started working in this work, I did all these focus groups all around Maine, and I was listening to people talk about how they got information. And I remember leaving, and we talked to like 150 people through these focus groups. And I remember thinking, "Oh my God, the only way we're ever going to really sort of have real exposure for everybody in Maine about what services exist, is if we talk to people one on one." Because you don't know what you don't know. Right. And you don't know what you need to know until you need to know it. And so these community initiatives are all, if you think about 130 initiatives, right. All around Maine, and there's somewhere between 20 and 100 or 200 people engaged in those, and all those people know all the services that are available to people in their community.

Jess Maurer:

They know what the food sources are. They know what the resources are for heating. They know how to get somebody a meal or home repair or a ramp built if they need to. They know all of this stuff. So it's brilliant. So that's what I can say we have done the best at, is this community development grassroots up. And I would say this age friendly state plan is great because it's finally, some of it's top down, I wouldn't say we've been particularly good, but the other piece is we have a lot of really good players here. I will say that our health systems generally are pretty impressive. I will call out Maine Health because they are an early adopter of the age friendly health system. If you haven't heard about it, I encourage you to bring them on because it's really fascinating stuff.

Jess Maurer:

And I know you're going to ask me a question about ageism and I want you to, because it's really, this is the most important thing we could talk about is ageism. But I've been saying that the age friendly health system project, or model is a great disruptor for ageism in healthcare. It's a critical disruptor because it forces a clinician to ask what matters most, which means it means, I say to you, Ben, what matters most to you? And I have to see you instead of see you as a stereotype of an 80 year old man who can't hear and has cancer. And I don't really want to talk to you. I'm going to just try to give you some drugs and move you along, I only have 15 minutes. So it's a disruptor. So, that's really been really good and they've been really terrific leaders.

Jess Maurer:

I will also say our university systems have been so great. UNE is an age friendly university, but they also have this center for excellence in aging and health. We've got the U Maine Center on Aging, St. Joe's has created a center on excellence in aging. They have done some really cool stuff. And particularly the University of Maine system has a whole aging initiative. They've got patents, they've done community engagement as a matter of fact, UNE too, also embeds, clinical students into nursing homes and hospice care. There's some really good cutting edge stuff around healthcare and education going on in Maine as well.

Jess Maurer:

And I mean, not to say there isn't, there aren't other things, but I will say also our foundations. 1% of foundation money nationally goes into aging and in Maine, that's a very different formula. We've been really blessed with leaders in the world of foundation who were smart enough to look around and say, "Huh, this is who we have here in Maine." We should be paying attention to them. So that's been a real blessing as well. So yeah.

Ben Smith:

It's a great list.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah, it is. So I'm going to be the bad guy here for a second. And I want you to talk about maybe some areas collectively where Maine historically could improve on how we support our aging population.

Jess Maurer:

Yeah. That's I mean, well-

Ben Smith:

Who, all right, where do I start?

Curtis Worcester:

All right. How about like the top couple, top few here. The big ones.

Jess Maurer:

Yeah. So you know what I say all the time is the number one problem, and of course you guys being the host here is a little bit, probably less true for the people who may be listening here. The number one problem for older people in Maine is poverty. And we have a whole bunch of people, I mean, tens of thousands of people who don't have enough money to meet their basic needs, but don't qualify for any means tested benefits. And so these are the people that keep me awake at night. They're the people who are really proud, never going to ask for help, making due with what they have and are feeling really good about that, but they're not repairing their homes when they need it. They're maybe only eating once a day. They're keeping their houses at 50. They're maybe cutting their pills in half or not taking all of their pills.

Jess Maurer:

And this costs us all that we don't sort of see this and do something about this because I mean, I can tell you what the downstream costs are of any number of things. And that's a real challenge. So we have really, and when I think about that, what the response to that is creating, understanding who's poor in Maine. Because we look at the poverty level, we don't look at where, where 150 FTL is, or 200. We have a third, a more than a third of older Mainers live on social security alone with an average social security of $16,000. Think about living on $16,000.

Ben Smith:

And we know some of them.

Jess Maurer:

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, we have to do something about creating tiered access to services and those folks that I just talked about cannot afford out of pocket for anything, but definitely not for home care. And so, that's one of the big challenges. So the other two big pieces, so that's, poverty is number one, but the big pieces are our direct care workforce. You can't get care, doesn't matter whether you're a millionaire or you're not. You just cannot get home care right now if even if you can pay for it. And then we have thousands of people in Maine who are not getting the care they're entitled to under Medicaid, just because we don't have workers. We have whole wings of nursing homes offline right now because there aren't enough workers.

Jess Maurer:

And we literally, I guarantee you this week in Maine health, somewhere between 100 and 120 people are in the hospital at Maine Med because they can't be discharged to home or to a residential care setting because of workforce. So we're stockpiling older people now in hospitals and people are surprised about that, but it's, I mean, I'm hearing some of the most gut-wrenching, heart rending stories about people who can't get care. It is definitely the crisis, it's beyond crisis. It was a crisis four years ago when we were trying to get more resources. This is about the fact that you can make $42,000 at a Motto's being a manager. And you're going to make $22,000 if you're really lucky being a home care worker. And even if you love being a home care worker, who wouldn't go make $20,000 more at a Motto's?

Jess Maurer:

[crosstalk 00:40:14] this is about our workforce shortage. We have to, we really have got to figure out whether we want to do something, actually, somebody at DOL just called this a market failure of this segment of the market. And so if that's true, we have to subsidize it. We have to put real money into this and say, "These are jobs we want people to take. So we have to pay $42,000 even though for some reason we think that providing the most intimate care of someone isn't worth that, but it's worth making a pizza." You It is mind boggling to me.

Jess Maurer:

The other piece is really housing. I mean, we have just such a housing mismatch and like I said, it is our plan, all of us that we're just going to stay in our homes. Well, that's great except for the fact that our homes don't always work for us as we age. And there's only one bathroom and it's on the second floor and I cannot tell you the number of people I know of, or have heard of who are crawling up and down their stairs once a week to take a shower and pissing in a pot in their living room. I don't mean to be rude, but this is what's happening; it's what we've come to. And what happens is, and there's any number of reasons, right? You've got a spouse that dies and you can't take care of the property anymore. Or your physical limitations don't allow you to go up take care of the property anymore. Or your income doesn't allow you to take care of the property anymore.

Jess Maurer:

But everybody waits until it's a crisis. And then when they do, they call the Area Agency on Aging [inaudible 00:41:49] have to have a new place to live. Well, there's a 10,000 person wait list to access affordable housing for older people. There's just no low income housing to be had. And that's affordable. And the average wait's like three to five years. So if you're 89, you've never called for help before, you hate asking for help, and you make that phone call and find out that you can't get what you need, you're going to hang up. You're never going to call back.

Ben Smith:

Sure.

Jess Maurer:

And you know what you're going to do, you're just going to stay living in that house that doesn't work for you. That's what's happening all over Maine. And we just, we have got to, again, incentivize the development of all kinds of housing in all kinds of places. And we're not even scratching the surface of the current demand with what we're building, but we need to be thinking differently about how we're building it, what we're building, how we incentivize it. And that's just a whole nother conversation. I could talk to you for literally [inaudible 00:42:43] hour.

Ben Smith:

Just kind of echo what you're saying there. Because enough situations where we've seen to your point about the bathroom on the second floor and you're kind of doing your bio work on the first floor, but then also the basement's the only one that's got the washer dryer hookup, and we've had lots of conversations about one of the biggest risks physically to aging population has been fall risk. So here you are, you have to, you have to go up and down stairs, and you have an instability problem regardless, and you are going to put yourself at danger the more and more you continue to go up and down these stairs. But I have to wash my clothes. I have to use the restroom. And I can't go anywhere else. I'm stuck. And I'm basically, I'm not trying to make [crosstalk 00:43:30]

Jess Maurer:

There's so much we can do about this, Ben. I mean, we have the money. We have the resources, have the technology. We can do something about this. This is an easier solution than the workforce one, honestly. And it's going to cost a lot less money. We just really have to get it together.

Ben Smith:

Gotcha.

Jess Maurer:

There are solutions there.

Ben Smith:

Well, I want to keep going here because we got a lot, I want to still cover with you, Jess. And I attended the AARP listening session in Brewer. This is must have been '19 probably. Maybe.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah.

Ben Smith:

Something like that. So that was fascinating. Because to your point about hearing from a lot of stakeholders, is that the Eastern Area Agency on Aging and it was fantastic. Because I learned a lot of hearing everybody come together. And one thing you talked was the resource list was, "Hey, if I only knew that this agency was doing this and this and this, or if I only knew that there was a wood bank that I could burn wood from" or whatever, there, all those things you're hearing from. But one thing that I took away was ageism was the theme that was coming up a lot. Just a lot of ... I want to ask about how you see Mainers experiencing ageism and how that's creating barriers to better lives in retirement. That again, to your point, that's probably the biggest question we're going to ask today. I want to just hear from your perspective of what you're seeing, how they're experiencing ageism, because maybe this is a very new term for a lot of people too, by the way, maybe they've never heard what this is. So maybe define it and then how this is creating barriers.

Jess Maurer:

Sure. So everything we've talked about so far that's wrong is an example of ageism by the way. I'm just going to be honest. So because there are ... So ageism of course is, and, and spoiler alert for everybody. We are all ageist, every single one of us, just anyway. We are. And it is bias or stereotype or discrimination on the basis of age. And so, I like to tell the example of, I live in Harpswell. I live down 123, it's 14 miles to Brunswick. And when I get behind somebody driving really slow, there's no options. And of course, I assume it's an older person. Because that is the stereotype. So I'm just being [inaudible 00:45:46] call myself out. So I want to be clear that I don't... Nothing happens about that. It's in my head. Damn old people driving slow.

Jess Maurer:

So that's, but we all have it. And so what happens though, is that, and why this is so important is that we make some assumptions that aren't necessarily true because I have, by the way, passed those people and it's a young woman driving or a middle aged guy. I'm like, "Okay, well I was just flat out wrong, right." and so what we do is we make assumptions as employers and I can tell you, we have been, let me just back up for a second and say, since COVID as an organization, we weren't really taking on ageism. And that's all we're doing now is talking about ageism because the over, unbelievable ageism we saw and still see it resulted in more than 500,000 older people dying in this country and they're still dying.

Jess Maurer:

It didn't have to be that way. And we certainly shouldn't have been pitting younger people needing to work against older people dying in the nursing home, sort of whether it that's okay or not. So, we're doing this power in aging conversation now, so it's a project. And so we're hosting conversations with all kinds of people, media, HR directors, healthcare, aging services, banks, foundations, public health, anybody who wants to talk to us, we are talking to them about ageism and the HR directors, when we talked to them, these were the cream of the crop, HR directors. Some of them, they bid it, that, oh yeah, my vice president, won't even consider somebody who's older because they don't think that they can do the technology.

Jess Maurer:

We were talking to a media news director and she said, "I can't afford older people." I mean, we weren't even talking with her about this stuff. I can't afford older workers. And I'm like, "How do you know?" I'm like, "Wow, okay, well, let's talk about best practices in terms of publishing your salary because everybody wins." Anybody who applies for that job is saying, I will work for that salary. Right?

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah.

Jess Maurer:

I mean, you're not wasting your time. You're not wasting their time. So I'm like that's best practice. So what we know about how Americans think and feel about aging and older people is that they don't think that ageism is real. And if they do, they don't think it's as bad as other kinds of discrimination. So like racism or homophobia. And the good news is that when you actually tell that story, that if you apply for a job and you're 55, like I am and an employer thinks that's too old and won't even give me an interview, I'm pretty competent. I'm actually pretty competent with technology, but you could just ignore my resume and I wouldn't get that job. I wouldn't even get an interview for that job because of my age.

Jess Maurer:

And you can tell my age, find my resume, that's wrong and people get that that's wrong. And so if you can have a conversation with about age bias, they get it. The other piece is really important and why, ageism like racism, it's so pervasive. It's like the air we breathe and it's all about, there's systemic. So it's the information, the media, the messages we receive about aging. It's called the last acceptable bias because we're still sending, you can still go to any grocery store and find unbelievably inappropriate birthday cards about people getting old.

Jess Maurer:

Now, if you saw any one of those about people being black or being gay, or ... No way would you have any of that. But it's okay. We're making fun of old people and that is a part of our culture and it's okay. That's just what we do. And so it is so ingrained in us and in our culture and it's about resources and rules about who can do what and who can't do what. You're too old for that, or you're even too old to make decisions about your own care. I mean, you think about all of these things and then it operates right inside of me and the interpersonal level between us, into our interconnected, but also within institutions. So I've already talked about what discrimination looks like. So it's pervasive.

Jess Maurer:

And it's here trust me. The fact that you can't get home care right now is a real intersection between the fact that under, the workers who care for people who are older and disabled, people who are older and disabled are not considered productive, right. They're not considered valuable to our economy and to our society, you can want it to be different, but that is the reality. And so why would we pay people who take care of them a lot of money and by the way, they're mostly women and often people of color. So, it's the perfect intersection. So, yeah, the fact that you can't get a home care worker directly goes back to systemic ageism. And so it's a big issue we have to address it. I could tell you story ... I mean, the reason we are about to start a wait list on Meals on Wheels in this state is because this last legislature was ageist.

Jess Maurer:

They passed the funding for school lunches for every kid, even though there was federal money, even though we didn't know when it was going to run out, took $20 million out of the Cascade fund. We had a bill for $1.5 million, 1.5 Million. They put 20 million in the reserve fund for Meals on Wheels because we know that there's going to be a wait list quickly and they wouldn't fund it, but we don't know when the federal money's going to run out. I'm like, but kids, yes, kids get the money. Older people, no.

Jess Maurer:

And that leads to this other piece, which is that. And I'm going to be done with ageism, is that we believe as part of our view of aging, that this is an individual problem. And if I need Meals on Wheels, I probably didn't do something right. I mean, so we have judgment about it. So this is the individual thing, right. That it's my problem to solve. If I can't find a home care worker, I actually think, or if I can't get my mom into a nursing home, I kind of think it's my fault. Or it's her fault. It's an individual responsibility as opposed to a systemic challenge.

Ben Smith:

Right, right. You're not trying hard enough is what you're saying.

Jess Maurer:

Right. And so we have to come over, we have two barriers here, right? I have to overcome that belief. And then I have to get government to overcome that belief or our legislators. So it's a little bit of a heavy lift to get at people to understand that, in fact, you can't solve our workforce problem. You can't solve our housing crisis. You can't create a public transit system. These are all things that are systems that have to be financed and thought through at a systems level in state government and that's what state government exists to do. So we do need to find the collective will to push our legislators in that direction and to continue to address ageism. So, yeah, sorry, I'm not passionate about that at all.

Curtis Worcester:

That was, it's an important dialogue, I think. And I want to keep going here a little bit to something you referenced a little earlier and that's technology. So in a previous episode of this show, we had John Deal who's from Hartford Funds come on our show and discuss the MIT age lab study on how technology in general will influence how we age. So I want to hone in on a specific piece kind of relevant to Maine, we think. So from your perspective, Jess, why is high speed internet statewide in the state of Maine so vital for an aging population? Again, maybe top couple answers here.

Jess Maurer:

Yeah. I mean, I'll give you the 30,000 foot [crosstalk 00:53:43] Well, obviously we'll one is connection. So the opposite of isolation is connection and technology creates an opportunity for people to be connected with one another, learn from one another, lifelong learning is really important. But by the way, again, we just assume, right, could go back to the ageism, older people don't use technology. And what we're talking about are older people living alone, isolated, it's also critically important that older people continue to work. I think we talked about this earlier. And so the lack of opportunity for an older person to also get a call job in New Mexico that you can do from home, if you could just have high speed internet, you could continue to work. Right.

Curtis Worcester:

Exactly.

Jess Maurer:

We're all moving into that world. So it's about work. It's about connection and it's about health, right? I mean, telehealth is one of the ways-

Curtis Worcester:

Huge, huge.

Jess Maurer:

... that we are going to bridge the workforce gap in Maine. And so we need to be able to do all kinds of things like in-home assessments for people who, by technology. We need to do all kinds of visiting for health and behavioral health, through that kind of technology. And we are also, it's going to help bridge the workforce gap in the direct care workforce. I mean, there's all kinds of ways that technology can have help us work smarter with the workforce we have. Senseo Systems, Inc has this now new, intelligent design technology that helps people meet their plan of care on a minute by minute, day by day basis. People love it. They're saving. They're not going to the hospital. They're not going to the ER. They're having better health outcomes just by use of this technology. So we need to be able to deploy that technology.

Jess Maurer:

Something as simple as Alexas, the city of Saco, the age friendly Saco initiative is using Alexas as a fall prevention, really cheap fall prevention. They're programming in Alexas to call the Saco fire department when somebody falls. It's brilliant. There's all sorts of things. I've just been talking about folks with dementia, who don't understand what a fire alarm is. If they're living alone and there's new fire alarms that say get out of the house. Because exactly, instead of the beeper, which is just like, "What the hell is that? I don't know what that is."

Curtis Worcester:

Right. Wow.

Jess Maurer:

These are the kinds of technologies we're thinking about and we need to be on the cutting edge of this stuff. We should be taking advantage of this stuff. We should be testing it out. So we should have tech. We should have broadband everywhere.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah.

Jess Maurer:

I'm just going to say it.

Ben Smith:

Well. And, Jess, I'll kind of add to and tie a couple things together. One is ageism and also technology. When we were rotating, obviously during pandemic and using technology more and a lot of our clients, look, they can't come to us and it's tough to access certain buildings or drive to you. So there's times that we're traveling to clients, but of course we don't want to do that during a pandemic because that puts them at risk. So we just put this out there as like, look, there's this technology, Zoom or Google Meet or whatever, we can do phone calls. We can, however you want to do it, let's connect. What was pretty amazing of our experience was actually it was the 85 and 90 year olds, they're like what we took some time. We learned it. We had a tablet, we've been doing it with our family members anyway. And we kind of figured this out.

Ben Smith:

And the 40 and 50 and 30 year olds were just like, ah, fumbling through it. Couldn't get their mic to work. Again, the stereotype and ageism here and the kind of the, if you were stereotyping, how you think this is going to go, that was not at all how we thought that was going to go. And kudos to that. This is important to us. We want to talk to you. It's important for us that they took the time to learn and think about it or go ask somebody to teach them, help set it up. That was a really kind of, again from us, just anecdotally small little sliver, I know, but kind of a cool little thing there.

Ben Smith:

But I want to ask another question about healthcare and a lot of the questions we get from our clients, especially even pre-retirement or pre kind of, as they're kind of thinking about ages 60 and up is access and cost of healthcare. So can we just get a little, your sense of the state of healthcare in Maine? I know you talked a little bit about the age friendly health system here in Maine Health, but can you talk a little bit about the state of healthcare in Maine and how is the service model working for Mainers?

Jess Maurer:

Yeah. I mean, I think overall there's a big difference between cost and access and quality of care. I mean, I think there's a whole bunch there. I would say that our health systems are really good and are really being very thoughtful and proactive. And as I mentioned, the age friendly health system model is a really brilliant one. What it does, is it looks at the four Ms. And so which are what matters most, mentation, dementia, your thinking process, medication, are your medications doing well for you or are they causing you to not be able to do what matters most to you, right. They making you queasy or whatever. And then finally mobility, and that is all kinds of issues related to walking or driving or ... and by the way, oftentimes all of those things go together.

Jess Maurer:

And then embedding that into the annual wellness visit, which everybody is entitled to. And that is so important is to begin separating out. I have a cold and I'm going to see my doctor. And that's like the one time I see my doctor, but it's really, I will say healthcare in Maine, typically they are early adopters and they are looking at social health needs, the social determinants of health. We're talking, where a very engaged conversation about what's called a creating a community information exchange, because that would be in my mind, it's the thing that is the biggest barrier for people getting good care is that so falls, you talked about falls. So if I fall in South Portland and I get transported to the hospital, because I'm injured, then that fall makes it into my electronic health record.

Jess Maurer:

If I fall and EMS comes and picks me up the fall, never makes it into my electronic health record. The fall is cataloged in EMS's system, but their current system is so messed up. Seriously, but it doesn't talk to, it doesn't share that information with the electronic health record, but more importantly none of that information, even if it goes into the electronic health record right now, it goes into the electronic health record. When I go to the hospital, I get discharged [inaudible 01:00:52] goes in my electronic health record. They might call me about the injury, but they're probably not going to call me about the reason for the fall.

Jess Maurer:

And so that information is never transmitted to a community organization that could go into the home and make an assessment about why that person fell, address the things you were talking about already, lack of a handrail, right? That's why I fell down the stairs because I don't have a handrail going down my stairs. It costs $50 to install the handrail simple. You can live more safely, unlikely to fall again, if we put some lighting in and picked up your throw rugs and put some handrails in and you're going to live another 15 or 20 healthy years. That doesn't happen. And so the person falls again and then this time has a really serious injury.

Jess Maurer:

So, a community information exchange would allow for EMS to get that data in, would allow for a community based organization to get that data. And we're all talking about, this is all of healthcare, talking with community based services and health infonet about how do we create this? How do we create this best system? So I will say, I find the federally qualified health centers are doing a terrific job. Dartmouth Hitchcock, I work with in New Hampshire. They're actually doing this incredible program where they've taken all of the Medicare codes because they figure money is everything to the healthcare, for the practice. And they have figured out what good geriatric care should be by managing the Medicare codes and are training primary care practices in Maine and New Hampshire to actively utilize those codes, to manage their older patients' health.

Ben Smith:

Which is going to give better outcomes.

Jess Maurer:

Which going to get better outcomes, which get more money for the practice.

Ben Smith:

Exactly. Right.

Jess Maurer:

Yeah. So I would say the state of healthcare is pretty good in Maine.

Curtis Worcester:

That's great. So I want to rotate a little bit here. Jess, can you tell us about the Maine Wisdom Summit? So you recently just held your eighth annual summit. So just kind of how'd it go and what was the response?

Jess Maurer:

It was great. So yeah, we host a, it's sad. This was our second virtual Wisdom Summit. We usually do it at the Augusta Civic Center, usually have like 400, 450 people. So we had fewer. The last year and this year we've got about 350 people. So, but that's pretty good. I mean, for people to spend a day or even half a day online, really hard. And older people will tell us no way will I do that. So know it's like I spend all day, every day in front of a computer. It's like, whether I'm at a conference or not, it doesn't matter. I do. But that's not the reality for a lot of people. So I really have gotten emails like, I must have misread this. No, you didn't. It's really an all day online conference. So it went really well. We had a couple of national speakers, which we were really excited about and we just got rave reviews actually. I like to say there's one in every crowd and like we had one person in every one of our segments say, eh, wasn't [inaudible 01:03:56] but that was it. They weren't the same person. So it was just clearly that speaker or that panel didn't connect with them. Otherwise people loved it. So it's great. [crosstalk 01:04:07]

Ben Smith:

So, Jess, I want to I'll make a plug is one thing we'll we talked about that our firm wants to join the Maine Council as well and become a member. But I think it would be really cool for us, Curtis and I have been talking about this off air is actually do an in person podcast recording at the Maine Wisdom Summit next year. That'd be a fun thing to kind of create a little buzz and do a little recording, kind of get access and kind of talk about different speakers and things that are hot buttons that are being talked about and create a little publicity. That'd be a fun kind of onsite recording. I think that would be a really cool thing to do.

Jess Maurer:

I love that. And I'll one up you. We could do some podcasts leading up to it of some of the subjects to kind of get people engaged in some of the subjects. So yeah. That'd be great. I think that's terrific.

Ben Smith:

But, because essentially we've seen this with other industries is people, hey, just, Hey, get a recording there kind of people are like, well what is this? And, but it's also people can listen to the conversations and here's what's happening and here's the speaker and what they're kind of ... but you could ... Anyway, lots of ideas.

Jess Maurer:

I love it. I love it. That's great.

Ben Smith:

That would be a fun, out of our comfort zone thing that Curtis and I and our team could do is get on a in person and do some live recordings.

Curtis Worcester:

You're putting us to the test here, Ben, I don't think we've ever done a live show.

Jess Maurer:

Awesome.

Curtis Worcester:

Oh man. All right. So I do have kind of one last question for you, Jess. We've reached the end of our conversation here. So kind of a fun question we love to ask all of our guests. So I want to ask you, what is your personal definition of retirement success? Because we're here on the Retirement Success and Maine podcast. So we think it's fun to kind of ask everyone that question.

Jess Maurer:

I think retirement success means doing what brings you joy right up until your last days. And it's just that straightforward.

Curtis Worcester:

I love it.

Jess Maurer:

We like to call retirement refirement.

Curtis Worcester:

Okay.

Jess Maurer:

Because we think people should get done is really the last generation. I mean the Boomers are the last generation of the long career, right? I mean get done, whatever it is you've been doing for the last 20 or 30 years or longer and do something that you love or something that tests you or, I've always wanted to learn to paint or whatever. My neighbor is a 72 internationally renowned boat builder, composite boat builder, built the ... I mean he's building one of those boats ... try whatever they are trimarans, in his barn so that we all can all get on his boat. So I mean, it is like it's ... I mean, like he's building while we're watching is really amazing.

Curtis Worcester:

Wow. That is.

Jess Maurer:

But so he actually reached out to the Harpswell Coastal Academy and said, "Hey, I'm building a boat. You want to send some kids over, I'll teach them how to build boats." And he did. I mean, it's that-

Curtis Worcester:

How fun.

Jess Maurer:

Exactly. And all built their own dingy. And they all learned applied math because you have to, these are like .... I mean, this is ... Chin Bro. Here's another great story. Right? Chin Bro. That's what they do. They use their older workers who can't work four 10s anymore, but they're too young, they're not going to get social security. So I mean Medicare they need health insurance. So they use that them to teach applied math to kids who are rockstars in math, but not applied math.

Jess Maurer:

They don't know how to make a cabinet. And so that's what they do is ... It's about understanding that we have all kinds of acquired wisdom and we've actually tried a bunch of stuff out that we know brings us joy. So that's my challenge to everybody who's thinking about stopping paid work is just do what brings you joy, but be productive. Be a productive citizen in your community, to your neighbors, to your friends, to your family, to our economy. Be productive. And if you are productive, you're going to be really happy.

Ben Smith:

And by the way, you're also going to probably feel younger. You're going to be, by being more active and by be keeping the connections, you're just going to think so many more benefits to that and living longer and being happier and healthier and all those things. So that's a really great definition, Jess. So thanks for sharing that with us. Well, thank you so much for coming on. I know we probably could have gone for another four hours with you and we might. That's another point, but thank you so much. This is just a really good treat for Curtis and I personally. I know our listeners and our clients are really going to enjoy this conversation too. So thank you, thank you, thank you so much for coming on today.

Jess Maurer:

You're welcome. It's sort of like a smorgasbord is what you call it.

Ben Smith:

Exactly.

Curtis Worcester:

Exactly.

Ben Smith:

State of the state, right?

Jess Maurer:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right.

Ben Smith:

So, Jess thanks so much. We'll talk to you soon. Take care. Okay. So Jess Maurer on the podcast today and if you didn't get all jazzed up and energized up after listening this conversation, she is passionate about aging and in the state of Maine. That was really clear to us, I think, as we went through this today.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah.

Ben Smith:

And it's just really tough because I think from a structural perspective, and it's tough to kind of answer one question because of how much it really goes in lots of different ways is world, our lives are impacted in lots of different ways, by different things, as she's saying energy, which impacting cost, cost and medical, medical to food. All those things kind of wrap up in there. And, but again, she's kind of having lots of really great conversations systemwide and statewide. So is kind of a really cool thing to kind of have her on the show today. So again, one thing we always like to do is kind of do the yellow highlighter to something that we really enjoyed about today's conversation. So Curtis, why don't you kind of bat lead off for us? Something that you really loved from our conversation with Jess.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah. I think this would be a good one to just take the yellow highlighter to the whole thing, honestly. So you mentioned it Ben, how just how passionate Jess is and how evident that was if you listen to this. And I think a piece that stuck out to me is a good chunk of this episode was talking about areas where there needs to be improvement. And I think we've talked about how the first step to improvement is identifying those areas. And I think that's what this episode did. And then it's just so refreshing, I think, to hear in whether it's in housing or healthcare or the community aspect, technology, there's people having these kind conversations about how to make it better. The plan may not be there right now and it's going to be fixed tomorrow.

Curtis Worcester:

We understand that, but I think, her point of getting the Department of Labor and Department of Transportation and all those people in the room, right. She kind of brought it up as a lighthearted story, but it's so accurate that just to get people together and to start putting these plans in place and trying to make progress there. And I think that's a good step. And she spoke really highly of our healthcare systems, how proactive they're being. The school systems or the university systems. So again, I don't want to feel like I'm saying, the whole thing was impactful, but it really was. And I think she did a great job kind of laying out what the state is doing well, what the state has done well and where the state needs to improve.

Ben Smith:

Yeah. And by the way, nothing and nobody's ever perfect. So there's always going to be gaps. There's always going to be things that we could be doing better and improving. I think one of the key things is having a culture of wanting to improve. And I think that was something that, again, through the Maine Council, and she's saying 120 organizations, so to convince like two organizations on something that they can agree upon, but to say, "Hey, here's 120 organizations of there's challenges. We want to be part of the solution. And we want to be part of the conversation," is really important as well. So I think it's really important work. And again, just kind of working with nonprofits and boards as we have, and we do, you got to have a passionate executive director, which Jess is and someone that really lives and breathes the mission of the organization. You can clearly tell she does.

Ben Smith:

But again, one thing that I kind of took away from today's show again, kind of hearing about Maine relative to the country and hearing that feedback of, Hey, Maine, well, the point of, yes, we have an aging population it's in kind of talking about births versus immigration. And you know, that's really not an easily solve is what she's saying is like, look, this, this hasn't changed for 30 years, is that we really haven't been replacing people as they've passed with new babies or immigration. And that just has just not happened, but kind of hearing a little bit more about, well, here's the services that we are needing. And by the way, that has changed because we continue to live longer, we need more and more services to continue to live. And by the way we need, we have, we need more social connection as we age, because we tend to get more isolated as we age as well.

Ben Smith:

So hearing about all those pieces together in how that's not just a Maine issue, that is a national issue. That's not just a regional issue, that's a national issue, but looking at Japan, looking at Europe and their, again kind of a little bit ahead of us on some of this and how they've looked at infrastructure and built and invested in it, that's something I think is pretty important. And as I know, we made the offhand comment is like, look, we're all going to get older. We are all going to get older. I don't care if you're two years old, if you're a hundred years old, we're all going to get older. And kind of hearing about what's happening from an aging perspective and what systems are there for us, whether it be 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, that there's structures for all of us, for all of our ages and continue to support us to be independent and live the life that we really want to live, which is really a lot of the show that we have.

Ben Smith:

So I think that was a really kind of, again, kind of a cool thing, kind of this concept of state of state was the idea. So Jess was able to share with us some of the links to some of these papers. And so we'll supply them in our show notes. So you can see the transcript and get a little bit more information on the Maine Council of Aging and some of the Maine state plan of aging and all the other kind of pieces we discussed today, you can see on our show notes, which you can go to blog.guidancepointllc.com/53, because this episode 53. You can check us out there again, we're in our 50s. So we're not quite in our 60s yet. Little pre-retirement. Still working on prerefirement if you're Jess.

Curtis Worcester:

That's right.

Ben Smith:

But again, appreciate you guys all listening. And it's just a pleasure for us to be able to have this opportunity to be in front of you and talk about aging and the state of Maine. Hope you continue to tune in and we'll catch next time.