Transcript 

Ben Smith:

Welcome, everybody to the Retirement Success in Maine. My name is Ben Smith, I'm joined by my co host, Curtis Worcester, the solar to my wind. How are you doing today, Curtis?

Curtis Worcester:

I'm doing well, Ben. How are you?

Ben Smith:

I'm doing well. We've done quite a few shows at this point. And I know one thing that, of course, is the thing that people associate Maine a lot, right? Is weather. And so of course, with weather, we have to do things to combat the weather elements in Maine. So we've been chatting about this, Curtis, you and I for quite a while, we got to do something on energy use.

Curtis Worcester:

Right.

Ben Smith:

It was a thing because especially from financial planners, it's a budgetary thing.

Curtis Worcester:

Exactly.

Ben Smith:

So we were looking up statistics, right? So one of the things we were looking up, according to the US Energy Information Administration, EIA data from 2017, that's the latest data we can get. The average monthly energy bill in Maine is just $87.21. So that's not bad. That's actually the lowest average energy bill of any state in New England and one of the lowest in the US. For reference, Maine's closest neighbor, New Hampshire actually has a price here $114.95 average monthly energy bill. And that data is also from smart data. But also you and I both know, right? We're looking energy, electricity is not the entire picture, right?

Curtis Worcester:

Sure.

Ben Smith:

We have more than one energy source that we as Mainers use. We can use heating oil, gas, wood, pellets, solar, lots of things to heat our homes, especially during the winter months or supplemental electrical use. But for many Mainers, especially Mainers that are in social security, heating electrical use is really a big budget item. So when we talk about energy, we really talk about it also, but in regards not just heating, but also transportation systems, our vehicles. So energy in Maine really is a big topic. But really we wanted to talk about, not just... Obviously, we know that, right? But what about for Mainers today? What's going on in energy use today and how we'll be impacting tomorrow? Especially for retirees, right?

Ben Smith:

If we're thinking, "Hey, we're retiring today, and we're thinking the next 30 years out. How can we create enough energy flexibility for our homes, or for our lives that we can adapt and react to changing prices on energy over our lives?" So that's really the premise of today's show was kind of this idea of future of energy use and Maine. So when we were searching out a guest, so our next guest holds a degree in chemical engineering from Rensselaer. He's a former state representative, where he's a member of the Energy Utilities and Technology committee. He co founded DuraLife Decking, a composite decking manufacturing company that continues to operate and grow in Biddeford. And after the company's acquisition, he then served as the director of sustainability for GAF North America's largest roofing manufacturer, developing initiatives such as roofing recycling, and a company's zero waste to landfill effort, as well as building networks with national organizations such as the US Green Building Council.

Ben Smith:

Currently, our next guest is the executive director for E2Tech, the Environmental and Energy Technology Council of Maine. He's also hosted the Grow Maine Show for over 100 episodes in six years and had his show picked up by WGAN, where it airs every Sunday morning at 11:00 AM. He grew up in Carthage, Maine, where his family still runs a small farm keeping jersey cows. He and his wife Amy and their two children live in Biddeford where Amy works at the Biddeford school department. So at this time, I'd love to welcome Marty Grohman to the Retirement Success in Maine Podcast. Marty, thanks for coming on.

Marty Grohman:

Hey, welcome to my nice cool basement in Biddeford.

Ben Smith:

I like it. Well, again, I know with podcasts, right? This is permanent stuff, but man it is 91 degrees, right? And it's summer right now and we're right before the Fourth of July recording this and actually kind of a pretty good time to talk about energy use because I think we're all soaking up a lot of electricity with air conditioning today, right?

Marty Grohman:

Yeah. We're sucking up tons of electrons. Yes, dear listener, thank you. I know another heat wave is coming I'm sure. But we are recording in the middle of one and am enough of an energy wonk that there's actually an app called ISO to Go which is the New England power grid operators overall capacity. And you can watch it peaking around 4:00 PM today. I'm sure yesterday, and people in the know get worried when we get above 25000 megawatts, when everybody gets home, turns on the air conditioners and so forth. And so a lot to think about there. And the cost of energy, and the impact of energy, for sure.

Ben Smith:

Well, and there's a lot we want to get into Marty, of course, when it comes to energy and such, but obviously, with all of our shows, what we want to do is really dig into you a little bit, just to hear a little bit more about your background and your biography, including your path towards working in the energy sector. So could you just kind of give us that path? And that run down there?

Marty Grohman:

Yeah. Sure. So thanks for the great introduction. So I'm the youngest of eight kids. I grew up on a farm in western Maine, milking cows before the school bus every day, so by hand, by the way. And like a lot of Maine kids, I thought that I needed to get away in order to succeed. So I went to college in New York, and then I ended up working for GE Plastics. Plastics, my boy and all. I worked for General Electric. And then I worked for a plastics machinery company in Cincinnati called Cincinnati Milacron, and I even got myself a job over in Vienna, Austria working for a while in the plastics industry. And every time I came back home to Maine, I thought, "Wow, I guess I'm kind of getting it." And by the time I was 30, I was ready to come back home.

Marty Grohman:

And I didn't really have a natural landing spot as a plastics engineer, and I figured it was my chance to start a company and it was right around the year '99, 2000. And the big name in the industry was Traxion Composite Decking. And I knew how to make products like that from my work in the industry. And I was young enough to figure what the heck, and so I put the business together and we had a good run of successes. It's still running today. DuraLife Decking actually, right in a better for industrial park. If you see the big silos as you're going by on the freeway, that's what that is. They're full of sawdust and making sawdust that is tongue and groove hardwood flooring, and it's getting made into high end composite decking. So it's a good business. The joke is it's doing better without me. And I'm actually proud of that, and they have almost 100 employees now and are making tons of decking. And after I left there, I pursued other interests in sustainability. And yes, even politics.

Ben Smith:

Well, and Marty, there seems to be a nice through thread, right? Obviously, within that bio, that I was reading there. Just seems like there's kind of this dance in and around sustainability and energy. And can I asked really, just around your passion there, what sparked a passion? Especially maybe going from, "Hey, here's my experience growing up around farms," and then getting into an energy and sustainability. What was the thread that got you there?

Marty Grohman:

Yeah. I think you hit the nail on the head, Ben that I think farming, a lot of it is about making do with what you have, and there's not a lot of cash around to buy new things. So you're always improvising and putting things together in new and ingenious ways, usually using some old piece of equipment in some new way. And I think I did kind of grow up that way. And I've long been convinced that there's money in sustainability effectively, that you can build businesses around it. And you can save money in your personal life by making smart sustainable choices. So I guess I'm trying to live that where I can in both business, personally, not always getting it right. But I do think that, that's the case. And so I guess it's a core value of mine.

Ben Smith:

Okay. Well, I'd love to learn a little bit more about E2Tech. Can you just talk a little bit about what E2Tech is and how it's helping to shape the state of Maine, especially around environmental energy and clean technology sectors?

Marty Grohman:

Yeah. Thanks E2Tech is coming up on our 20th anniversary. And we were formed by a group of companies that really wanted to build this sector of "clean tech" in Maine. And that could be anything from biofuels to solar, to resilient design and construction that's suitable for when the power grid goes down. So we have about 300 member companies and they encompass everything from East brown Cow, which is a sustainable property manager that owns a bunch of properties in Portland that people know like the Hyatt Place Hotel and many others like that. Other members include Ocean Renewable Power Company which makes RivGen, a unit that goes in rivers and makes power from the flow of the river and prominent banks like Northeast Bank or prominent construction companies like Cianbro, or Sargent Corporation and energy efficiency companies like Train that makes air conditioners and then other companies like Central Maine Power, Summit Natural Gas and Revision Energy and Sunrun, which is a solar company.

Marty Grohman:

So this group of companies was not enough to hire me to advance the mission overall. You could think of it a little bit like, why do they do this? It's like, why does L.L. Bean promote hiking? Why does L.L. Bean want people to go outdoors? And maybe they'll buy some boots. But in this case, this group of companies says, "Alright good things are going on in clean tech in Maine. We want to see the sector advance. So let's put this guy in charge to trying to network and help our businesses grow. And it's probably not that direct of a thing. But over the course of many years, we'll see progress and advancement in our business." So it's a bunch of companies taking the long view in energy and environmental fields, basically.

Ben Smith:

And Marty, I love that because I think from a couple of ways here, and when you have legislative and governmental experience here as well. But from even I know, you have a podcast that you've run, that's obviously now on the radio now, the Grow Maine Show. Obviously, Maine's a very small place, right? It's easy to access, I think, a lot of Mainers, and I think a lot of Mainers are very approachable and accessible that way. And just seeing that thread of, "Hey, what you're doing with E2Tech," but also from your legislative experience. And then from the podcast experience, where you're talking to entrepreneurs, talking about what are their challenges around business? How do they kind of scale? What about entrepreneurship? You're kind of weaving the tapestry, right? Is connecting people, connecting ideas.

Ben Smith:

And I think that's been a just from afar. Again, you and I have not talked about this, but I've admired that about you, especially with that Grow Maine Show because as someone that's really, we're scaling our firm here and trying to grow is to learn from others, right? And hey, in Maine, we're all seeing similar things, and trying to pick up on trends and themes, and what are people seeing? What are they people doing? So hearing and pulling that from you has been really helpful, I think just even from the business perspective. But I'd love to hear about with that thread there, with the legislative and governmental experience, but also from maybe the Grow Maine Show, how have those efforts really helped your viewpoints of energy in the state of Maine and really informed those?

Marty Grohman:

Yeah. Thanks. So I started the Grow Maine as a play on my last name Grohman and Grow Maine. And I had a good experience starting and growing company in Maine. We were listed on Inc. 500 three times in a row as successfully sold the business to a big national player, as I mentioned, and people don't think of Maine as a good place to start a business. Sorry, the reputation isn't necessarily there. So I thought maybe I can try to change that by a little bit of like, how I built this for Maine. And when I started the show, it was much more difficult to produce a podcast. And it's been an interesting arc. And it's made a lot of connections for me. I would say that's the biggest thing, and has been probably the predecessor of some other great podcasts, including yours in Maine, and so I'm proud of that. And I think that's been the biggest thing is just a door opener for me. I was actually last week speaking to Gavin from Bangor Savings Bank in Bangor. And I had never met Gavin. He said, "I know you."

Ben Smith:

Exactly.

Marty Grohman:

We hit it off right out of the gate there. So I think it's been a good platform. And I have tried to focus on companies that have well, good employment stories. I think companies that are doing well, by doing good, of which we're blessed to have a ton of in Maine. And I've long believed that the companies in your local community employing people, helping them advance... Well, let me back up. I can just tell the story that makes the point.

Ben Smith:

Yeah. Please.

Marty Grohman:

So when I started the business, obviously, I was quite young and green myself just about probably 30 ish. And I actually had very little or basically no management experience. And one of my first hires was a young man named Jamie and he was actually probably just two or three years younger than me and right around the age of you guys, obviously. But anyway, now today, I keep up with Jamie. He's gotten married, his kids are actually close to going to college now or in college, he bought a house and practically paid off his mortgage. He's advanced. He's actually got a senior position within the plant. I think he's the assistant plant manager or something like that. So there's nothing more rewarding than that. But I think not running a company, not being an entrepreneur currently, if there's one thing I miss about it, it's that. That's really what is so rewarding about running a company. And I think companies that focus on that kind of thing, that's always who I wanted to get on the show. And those are great stories. I love telling those.

Ben Smith:

Yeah. And again, I think that's where you interviewed, actually one of my former interns, Neil Spillane, right? And Neil had the Fork Food Lab down to Portland that he was a part of. And I think that's what's really cool and a cool of you're seeing, and Curtis, actually came from that internship program that we were developing here at Guidance Point. So we had, I don't know, seven or eight kids in college, and they were part of an entrepreneurial experience. And so then tuning in to your show and going, "Wow, a lot of other people are doing this." And they're mentoring, and they're fostering cultures, and they're really trying to build relationships amongst their team to really strive towards that effort, and really pulling everybody together. Again, it's happening in Maine. And I think that was the cool thing of that.

Ben Smith:

So I really love. A lot of the lessons that are coming out of your show Marty was that, especially, that's what really spoke to me. But I want to pivot to, again, this topic of future of energy use in Maine. Right, and I think that we're talking about any of our topics, we always start with some foundation. So can we just start with some understanding of the state, of the state of Maine in regards to energy? How would you describe how energy is being utilized throughout the state?

Marty Grohman:

Well, that's a big one. I'm involved with the Maine Climate Council. So I am a member of the energy working group of the Maine Climate Council. So thinking about the data from the emissions and pollution side of things, most of our energy, more than half, I think it's 54% is used to move us around. So it's cars and light duty vehicles, as I say, up to heavy duty vehicles trucks and school buses, and so forth. So if we're thinking about pollution, which I guess is the way that I'm coming at it, that's our biggest challenge. Within our electrical mix, we are very strongly fueled by natural gas. Right now, as we speak about 70% of our electrical power comes from natural gas. And that's why you can turn on the air conditioner in the middle of the night.

Marty Grohman:

The journey that we're trying to go on is to have more of that power come from wind and solar, and so forth. But actually a bigger picture thing I could have started with, I think this is really interesting is, overall Maine's power use is declining. So as a state, we use about 2000 megawatts of power at any given moment, that's even kind of on a high end. And that's probably just a number, but it was much higher many years ago with more industrial plants running, but also all of our efficient appliances and LED light bulbs and all that kind of stuff are actually working.

Marty Grohman:

So there's a really interesting thing going on where you do hear this controversy within the electric power distribution world, where should we build this corridor? Should we expand this? And so forth. And it's like the tolls have to go up because there's less cars on the freeway. As a bigger picture thing, part of what's going on and creating challenges is that we just don't have as much power running through the wires. It's a surprising thing to hear and learn, but that's part of what's going on behind the scenes.

Curtis Worcester:

And you just touched on it there, Marty, but can you just talk about how energy consumption has changed over time, specifically with personal use?

Marty Grohman:

Yeah. Thanks, Curtis. So my daughter was just asking me yesterday because I was showing her the ISO to Go app which anybody can grab. It's free from our independent system operator in New England. And if you want to go full wonk, and if you're watching the video, I am wearing a pocket protector t-shirt just as everybody could tell. So anyway, we are going full log here. We used to peak in the winter is the point. So it used to be, we had electric baseboard heaters, we have more stuff that used electricity in the winter. Now, our peak may well be set on the day we're recording this podcast where the air conditioners are all cranking. We're putting in heat pumps, which also do AC and so on. And that is creating a tough challenge is actually in the world of electricity where, I know you probably expect, Curtis, that if you walk into your office any time 24 hours a day, right? You flip on the switch and turn on the air conditioner is going to work right?

Curtis Worcester:

Sure. Yeah.

Marty Grohman:

And to you it probably doesn't matter how hot or cold it is out, it's better work, right?

Curtis Worcester:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ben Smith:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Marty Grohman:

That's how we all feel. But that's actually remarkably difficult to achieve. And so on a day like today, or any really hot day, 90 degrees plus, those wires are up there going, "This is everything we got, man. We're grinding here." At 4:00 PM on a 90 degree day and you walk in, and you're like, "I'm turning this on, man." That's not the expectation in other parts of the world, but it is there in the US. So the point I'm leading up to is most of the cost is actually driven. And this is incredible to learn, I think. There are literally only about eight or 10 hours per year that set the cost for all of our electric grid. And those today are very hottest days of the year.

Curtis Worcester:

Interesting. And I just want to keep going a little bit here. And can we talk about maybe what's the trend, thinking about households on how we will use energy and the impact it's going to have in terms of costs on our budgets?

Marty Grohman:

I think that the trend is actually, what the Maine Climate Council would like to see is less oil and more electricity. So ideally, an overall reduction in your costs. But even if that isn't achieved, definitely transition from your oil tank in the basement. Do you two heat with oil?

Ben Smith:

We have the oil. We do heat.

Curtis Worcester:

We do. Yeah.

Marty Grohman:

Yes, so do I. So that's three out of three. And actually, the number is between six or seven out of 10 for me. We all have these tanks oil in our basement. So there's obviously emissions associated that burning oil. And if we were all to switch to electric heat pumps, then at least those emissions will be taking place at a power plant, a little easier to handle than they would be coming from 600,000 suburban chimneys, which is what we have now, roughly. So that's a big thing that is a transition of the Maine Climate Council is looking for. And I have some thoughts on homeowners what we can be doing, and suggestions and ideas too, that we could get into as well.

Ben Smith:

Yep. And I know we get a question coming up on that, Marty, but one thing I want to ask about because this theme came up a lot in our shows is that really in the state of Maine, we have some older housing stock, and maybe it's just a generational thing about again, keeping up with our homes and in the money that's necessary to keep our houses current. But how have you seen the age and conditions of the state's housing stock really impact energy consumption and planning?

Marty Grohman:

Oh, geez. I think that Michael Stoddard, who's the executive director of Efficiency Maine Trust, which is, well, Maine's rebate provider, and so forth. That's a horrible description of what Efficiency Maine does, but we all have an idea. So anyway talks a lot about this, and that you have this effect of the tail, and of the least efficient homes really being hard to keep up with and may not. I'll give you an example. So where I live in Biddeford, I am a member of the Rotary Club, and we have done fundraisers to buy oil for people in the coldest months of the year in distress. And we've been fortunate to raise quite a bit of money to do that. And we go, and I've written a lot personally, when people are okay with this to come and say, "Hey," shake hand, "Hey, we were glad to help out."

Marty Grohman:

Now, most of the time, where you're going is a trailer from 1974, with a furnace that is really, really inefficient, and we're going to pour 275 gallons of oil in there and it's going to be gone and 10 days, you know what I mean? So whereas maybe a bit of a stereotype. But if we went out to Prouts Neck, we might find a home that was built at the cost of $2 million, that could literally go two or three years on that same tank of oil because it would be built with high efficient and the latest materials. So I think a massive challenge is actually, and this is true for cars, transportation too, lower income people pay so much more of their income... I don't want to say disposable income, just their total income on these two things.

Marty Grohman:

Low income Maine people pay something like 35% of their paycheck for heat and 35% for their car, which doesn't leave very much. It's an incredible amount of your money that is going to energy stuff. And so we need to find a way to get people out of that. And it can be tough to do. If you think of that mobile home, we could try to upgrade the furnace, but they might not own the place. They might not own a lot that it's on and they probably don't have a credit rating that would be worthy and so forth. So finding programs like on bill financing, things like that, that will help people get out of that do loop is a lot harder than you might think at first blush.

Ben Smith:

Yeah. And it seems like, Marty, that's a really interesting point because not just taking those percentage and saying, "Hey, this is really expensive as a percentage of my budget," but also from a structural perspective of the way my home is structured, or as you said, it's like may be not as renting as much or there's more kind of older housing that I can afford to get into, or one of the, be maybe a mobile home, whatever. That's really interesting that they're not only just paying more as a percentage, but also from an absolute dollar because it's just how inefficient those systems can be. So that's really fascinating.

Marty Grohman:

Yeah. You don't want to pour that down the drain anytime you can. Of course, we all feel that way. But to the extent that it's possible, solar is a pretty good example. And you're a financial professionals, I believe. You'll do better with this analogy than I will. My neighbor asked me the other day, "Okay. My power bill is a couple $100 a month, what would I be looking at for a solar install?" I said figure 15 to 20,000 bucks. Okay. What would that do to my power bill? It would eliminate it. So 200 bucks a month, you wouldn't be paying, but I don't have 15 or 20,000 bucks. Well, all right. How do you get out of that cycle? Because if you did have that amount of money, and you were to put it in some financial vehicle, you'd actually be extremely pleased if that financial vehicle returned you a lockdown steady $2400 a year, wouldn't you?

Ben Smith:

Right. Yes.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah. Sure.

Ben Smith:

Absolutely.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah.

Ben Smith:

Yeah.

Marty Grohman:

So that's a good way to think about some of these renewable investments. And people always think about, "Well, that payback is going to take forever," and they're dividing 200 into 20,000. That's not the way to think about. It's if you can come up with that money via financing, or somehow this is one, it's a very good investment.

Curtis Worcester:

I like that. So you teased up my next question perfectly a few minutes ago. So something that we work with all of our clients on is trying to figure out how to stretch their dollars longer in retirement. Heating and energy is a big budget item for a lot of people in Maine. So I want to ask, what are some things that Mainers can do today to make their heating and energy costs go down over time?

Marty Grohman:

The number one thing that I can mention right now is community solar. We have two E2Tech members, Power Market and Arcadia that work in that sector. This is new offering, new legislation within the state of Maine. The offers are around 10, or some are 15% off of your electric bill. There's essentially no downside, you're committing to use the power from a solar field in Baldwin, say in the case of power market, and you're getting a percentage off your bill. And so you're helping this renewable energy installation get built, and you can opt in and out at any time. And that's a major opportunity. I'm taking advantage of that myself. I recommended it. It adds a touch of complexity to your electrical bill, but it's not hard to manage with the usual auto pay things.

Ben Smith:

Would you say, Marty, the couple of things that, I guess, thinking about too is you said maybe those would less income have maybe a more complex issue around doing things to lower their trends. But it sounds like what things are saying, though, is that the trend is lower anyway, right? That we're kind of having trending of lowering energy cost as a theme historically. Do you think that will continue?

Marty Grohman:

I think that the low income... If you're on a fixed income having represented Biddeford part of it for four years, knock on a lot of doors met a lot of people that are retired and get an $1100 Social Security check or something like that, and not looking for a $575 oil bill, any more frequently than they can avoid it. A very difficult thing in the case of Efficiency Maine and also in tax policy for what it's worth is program delivery. They're really that is the number one thing that I would say is to, if you are on a fixed income now is the time to go to efficiencymaine.org. There are programs to help you get out of the do loop of what I'm describing, to upgrade your oil furnace to the latest model, to switch maybe to a heat pump or to another source like LP gas.

Marty Grohman:

It's funny, it happens constantly. You're familiar with the earned income tax credit. And that's actually a really significant chunk of money both at the federal and state level, in which you can actually receive a check even if you didn't pay in. In Maine, it's hundreds of dollars, at federal level, it's 1000s of dollars, but they're probably within a mile radius of each of us where we live. There are hundreds of people who qualify for earned income tax credit who haven't and don't apply for it. They don't know about it, they don't find it, you have to file a tax return, they don't want to deal with that. So it's the same with the energy stuff, is that's really the number one thing that I would recommend, and it's around, you get started with the weatherization stuff, or the energy efficiency stuff. It's like what we talked about with recycling, reduce reuse and all that. That's the big thing. I've got my home locked up tight. And I recommend that and it reduces your expenses overtime.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah.

Ben Smith:

So Marty, I want to ask another question is... Because we've spent a little bit of our time on cost, right? As cost has been part of the driver of the conversation. And one of things I think, from an aging perspective, right? Is that as we're aging, especially Mainers, right? We probably want to think about which energy sources we're committing to over time, especially sources that are more friendly to us as we age. I'm thinking about the example of the people that have been on a woodfire heat, right? And that they're cutting and stacking and they're bringing in wood in the middle of the winter, and all of that, right? That's not a really aging friendly way to heat your home, especially when you're getting into your 80s and 90s. So can you talk a little bit about maybe what some energy sources that we can be thinking about that would be maybe friendlier to us as we age?

Marty Grohman:

Yeah. Well, that's funny because I volunteer a lot via Rotary at a local skating rink. And I was talking to one of the guys over there, whose of course, he's 75 ish, Vietnam veteran Marine, and he was telling me about his firewood. He was, "I like to stay two years ahead." And I think, "My gosh, Paul." He's a lot better than I do. He was with two, and I don't actually have my wood in. So Paul is two years ahead. And he's cutting enough to get a three. I throw some ideas at options out there that maybe aren't initially thought of. One thing that I do is I get my heating oil from Maine Standard Biofuels, which is really interesting. It's used cooking oil. So here in Biddeford, we have a used cooking oil collection point at our recycling facility. And Maine Standard Biofuels, which is in Portland collects from there, and many other places like that a lot of restaurants, and they process that into heating fuel. So it's a fossil, it's a dinosaur free alternative to running your furnace.

Marty Grohman:

It's the same price, and it's complete drop in, so I got a tank of that. And we're using that and I like to get through the winter on one tank of oil, so should be good, if we could do it. I personally am a fan of pellets as well. And my friends at Main Energy Systems in Bethel, they actually have delivery trucks now that if you spent some time in Europe, I suspect you have listeners, you'll find a lot of homes that heat with pellets. And when you go into the basement where we would have an oil tank, they have a very large bin.

Marty Grohman:

And often it's just a concrete wall and blocks and a wedge shaped area in the basement. And the pellets go in there just like the coal used to way back when and the furnace runs on those. Maine Energy Systems can do that kind of thing. So if you don't want to schlep those 40 pound bags around, you could do that. So it's an option that is new. And I don't think too many people are aware of it. You can even have a little silo outside your house if you want to pellets.

Ben Smith:

Interesting.

Marty Grohman:

Yes. Depending on how you feel about that look.

Curtis Worcester:

Marty, I want to rotate and talk about vehicles. So geographically, the state of Maine is rather large, a lot of us spend a lot of time on the road, whether it's for work or leisure. And certainly the more rural you get, you may have a longer commute to service centers, like hospitals or grocery stores, whatever it may be. So I want to ask, what is happening with fuel and energy usage in vehicles and what's the change there?

Marty Grohman:

Yeah. Thanks for asking that, Curtis. So E2Tech, we have a current project, we are engaged by the Governor's Office of Policy Innovation and the Future led by Hannah Pingree to develop the state's clean transportation roadmap. So I'm actually personally engaged right now in helping develop that and we're listening, really wanting to hear from people on their experience. I want to hear from you what you think about reducing pollution from transportation and looking for ideas. I am personally enough of the wonk that I'm on my I think fourth electric vehicle, including my first one, which was in 2007, which was a complete disaster, I lost all of my money, it almost caught fire. I had to get it back to where I got it from in California in order to get rid of it. So it involved actually sending pieces of it on trucks back to California to make the damn thing go away too.

Marty Grohman:

Now I do drive a nice late model Tesla, which is a remarkable vehicle. And today, already that Tesla has been to drop my son at camp in Freeport at Bradbury State Park. And later will be driving my daughter up to Doorway Maine, which is a 200 mile round trip roughly to drop off at another camp. So that car's got to get 300 miles today. It'll be charged up in between at home or at a supercharger. And that cost will be third to a half of what a gasoline vehicle would be. And the emissions will be about a third to half. And these cars are really nice to drive. Not just the Teslas, they're fun to drive. Actually, you should know that the cheapest vehicle to own in Consumer Reports and the JD Power number one vehicle reliability over rated right now is the Nissan LEAF. In Consumer Reports right now, used a 2012 Nissan LEAF in their estimate, it has an annual maintenance projected cost of zero.

Curtis Worcester:

Wow.

Ben Smith:

Wow.

Marty Grohman:

The only time they've ever measured that. So they poll their readers so they aren't making this data up. So you think of like the Corolla and stuff like that as being cheap cars over time to own that's the only car they've ever had a zero.

Ben Smith:

Which is interesting because obviously, you don't need an oil change, right? And you don't need, right... There's the maintenance that you think of with your gasoline car that would-

Marty Grohman:

You generally don't need to do brakes because they do regenerative braking. You could occasionally, you're looking at every 10 years, maybe for a break. It depends.

Ben Smith:

Yeah.

Marty Grohman:

I don't want to say there aren't things that go wrong with electric cars. I've actually had a number of problems with my Tesla that only an electric car would have like the charge door stopped opening and closing. And I had to have that replaced. And I had a weird techie software problem that they had to come and do. But still making the point, a used EV and frankly, in particular, the Nissan LEAF is a heck of an investment for a daily runabout.

Ben Smith:

So Marty, that's a really interesting point that you bring up around that story, right? Because I think when we're thinking about cutting edge technologies, right? And you're thinking about, "Hey, I want to feature proof some of my retirement. I'm trying to... Obviously, I have my core values. I really want to align with sustainability. I want to reduce my costs over time." But I think there's kind of this concern of, "Well, I don't want to be so cutting edge," kind of what your story is, with that first EV car, right? Is all sudden. I'm so early on in the innovation curve, that there's so many things that haven't been figured out. And now I'm the guinea pig and I got to spend a lot of money to figure out things that people haven't really encountered before. So can you talk a little bit about what's happening with energy technologies? And where we are and what's coming down the pike?

Marty Grohman:

Yeah. I can try including more examples of where Marty went wrong. I have worked... [inaudible 00:38:46] so fun. Solar hot water is 10 11 years ago, I had solar hot water system pretty straightforward thing that ever was kind of familiar with. You got these black panels on the roof, the water goes up there, it comes back warmer, right? So I've actually personally removing a set of those from my house right now. Late at night last night, I was working on it spilling propylene glycol on the floor, heat transfer fluid while I'm trying to figure out how to get rid of this damn thing. So that's another bleeding edge technology that I unfortunately adopted. So that's a good question. EVs have arrived. One thing that I personally think we don't talk about enough is that electric lawn equipment has totally arrived. I had a long series of electric lawn mowers and weed whackers that turned out to be junk.

Marty Grohman:

I know I had five of those. I literally have five of those. I'm trying to get rid of them that brand Neuton N-E-U-T-O-N. Anyway, but now all of those are actually almost better than the gas one. Please don't forget that when we're talking pollution, small engines are awful. Small engines don't have the catalytic converters and things like that. Mowing your lawn for an hour is way worse than driving a Ford Explorer to Boston and back. That is way worse. So if you can go to an EV electric lawnmower, please do it. They work better. And that's another tech that's arrived. So I guess the answer is, see what Marty does let him do it wrong and move to it 10 years later to know whether stuff is full on arrived. I'm not 100% sure of real life, but I feel like solar PV, solar electric cars and electric lawn equipment are three that I can name where I feel comfortable recommending those things are not going to go wrong.

Curtis Worcester:

I want to keep going down this thread of kind of cutting edge technology. So geographically close to Ben and I in the Bangor or Orono area, we have Dr. Habib Dagher out of the University of Maine's Advanced Structures and Composite.

Marty Grohman:

He's a legend. Yes.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah. And he's doing some great stuff. And I think a big one is offshore wind turbines. So I just want to ask you, how do you think his work is impacting the state of Maine's thinking about energy in the future?

Marty Grohman:

So you're touching on a major third rail with Maine energy policy. Go ahead. Keep that one up. Habib is a friend, he helped me start my business in the composite decking world. Obviously, he's one of the world's renowned composite experts. I think we've got to find a way to get there with offshore wind, if we're looking at Maine's electrical mix right now, on a very hot, sunny day, it is not very windy. So we are not getting the renewable generation that we would like to get renewables to consistently make power when we use power is a massive opportunity. And actually, to get consumers to use power when there is power is also a matching clean tech opportunity that I'd love to explore a little bit more.

Marty Grohman:

But staying on the theme of offshore wind, we got to figure it out. We do. And I think if anyone's going to it's going to be Habib. We've got to establish fisheries that we can't mess with. And they have a long tradition. They're also a proud tradition. I grew up in rural Western Maine, as we've mentioned, you guys are in Orono, Bangor. I'm not a coastal guy by birthright. And I confess that growing up in Carthage, when I thought of islands, I thought these are like rich people, that was all that was ever in my head when I was eight years old. I never had any other sense of it.

Marty Grohman:

And now, I'm much more familiar with kind of the working fisheries and so forth of the challenges of that. And I get it as far as defending your turf. And I'm intrigued by the culture of that. A quick example, I attended a presentation with at the Maine Coast Fishermen's Association, in which the panelists asked a group of lobster fishermen and women, "Could we place tracking devices on your boats to see where you go, such that we could then do our offshore wind development in other areas?" And I bet you can imagine what the answer to that question was.

Ben Smith:

Nope. Oh, to the heck, no.

Curtis Worcester:

Yes.

Marty Grohman:

Yes, exactly. So I think is part of the challenge. But I think there's an outcome where maybe members of the fishery are co owners of some of these developments. Maybe they're involved in it somehow. And maybe that gets you there, where you feel like, "Okay. This is the commons, our ocean that we all live and work in collectively," maybe we find a way to have part of that work be the generation of power because that wind is out there blowing as we speak, even though it's not blowing here on the hot, playing when we're all cooking. We really need that energy. So I'm glad Habib is out there pushing the envelope. The guy is incredible. I don't know how he does it, and he has my 110% support.

Ben Smith:

Awesome. Well, Marty, I want to ask about, maybe kind of, you've done a little bit of storytelling in terms of your own life and things that you've been doing from an energy perspective. But maybe you could just spend a couple minutes because I think it'd be helpful to hear as each of us, and as we're working in our households and thinking about our own ways of future proof energy costs. Can you just go through your thinking of, I know, maybe from the 10,000 foot level of, "Here's what I'm trying to accomplish." And then maybe from, obviously you talked about the solar heated water or other themes and how those kind of all fit in. And when they don't work and what you're trying to accomplish with I think from a thematic perspective or strategically, it would be helpful to hear from you and what you do, how you think about it, and then what you're doing to implement this kind of future proofing idea.

Marty Grohman:

I think you're probably getting a little too much credit for having foresight, but I'll try. So thing that I left out earlier is cool roofing, believe it or not. So if a hailstorm comes or you're getting a free roof replacement switch to a lighter color roofing. We are in a place now with the heat in Maine. And we're getting our arms around this, but the summer heat is a bigger deal than the winter cold. And dark charcoal gray roofing is a massive energy load on your home. Switch to the Energy Star rated shingles are the lightest color that you feel comfortable with and the look of your home, that's a big deal. They don't cost any more or generally don't, and that AC bill is a bigger problem for you than your oil bill. And I think about that.

Marty Grohman:

I think about wiring your garage for 240 you're going to have an electric vehicle plugged in out there. And you just need essentially, it's like a dryer plug or your range, we're all used to that. You just need one of those in the garage. An interesting thing is the National Electrical Code is updating. And in new homes where that code is adopted, there'll be a whole house surge protector and I think this is that same kind of thing. A little bit more electrical capacity for your next vehicle is a good chance that it will be either all or partially electric. Plug-in hybrid vehicles are a great solution. In my opinion, they have a lot of the lowest operating costs and that you can get. I own myself plug-in Prius, it's a remarkable vehicle. Honda makes an incredible one, a lot of the minivans are now doing it. You can drive for two months, and never switch on your gas engine.

Marty Grohman:

And then when you need to run down to New York to pick somebody up for the weekend or whatever, then you're running on gas. Not all the Eco weenies love the plug-in hybrids, a lot of people want to make the step directly fully to EVs. But I personally think that in Maine, it's a solution we should adopt. So I'd be on that. I thematically, I don't have a great rubric or tool that I use other than I'm just constantly looking for little ways to move ahead. E-bikes are incredible. Have you either of you ridden an E-bike yet?

Curtis Worcester:

No.

Ben Smith:

No. Not at all.

Marty Grohman:

Complete game changer. E-bikes are so satisfying to ride. And as far as your daily commute, going to the grocery store, going down to get coffee, or even just a ride for pleasure, e-bike is just remarkable. And I couldn't recommend them more highly. Get one that's safe for you with a step three design or whatever it might be. But you can get into a good e-bike for 1500 bucks 2000 bucks to do a fair bit of your errand running.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah.

Ben Smith:

Interesting.

Marty Grohman:

They are just fun. They are just fun. They really, really are. They're one of those eco innovations where you're like, "Yeah." It makes you feel like a kid again. So that's another thing that comes to mind.

Curtis Worcester:

All right, Marty. So we've kind of reached the end here. I have one question left for you. And we're going to change gears on you. So we are here on the Retirement Success in Maine Podcasts. A question we like to ask all of our guests is what is your personal definition of retirement success?

Marty Grohman:

Thank you. I enjoy the podcast. I like hearing the answers to this. I have come to this place where I don't think that... Well, let me back up. So I'm an avid bird hunter, I raise single setters. I have a friend who's an instructor at the L.L. Bean outdoor school. And he says, "Listen, come on up here. We'll bring you in for a couple of days a week. You could teach on the skeet range, or something like that." I would say, "I never think about that." Because I think that would be awesome. But I know that personally, I'm always just somebody who wants to work. So I've actually, to be honest, stopped thinking about what I'm not going to be... I saw a license plate today that said 66 like, okay. I made it to 65, I'm retired. I felt like that person is awesome. They stuck to a goal. They achieved it and they're relaxing and having breakfast with friends at their own pace. I am not that person. I anticipate that I'll just keep on trucking.

Curtis Worcester:

That's fine.

Marty Grohman:

And hopefully, what Colonel Sanders started his KFC when he was surrounded my age, right? I think I'm excited about that. I'm intrigued by all kinds of sustainability stuff. I think of batteries a lot, to be honest, who's recycling batteries? I think that there's a really significant business opportunity in recycling batteries. I spend a lot of time poking at that. I think that a business that it has a sustainability mission, but it's also profitable is always possible. And I want to try to focus on that. And that's one I've actually got a little side hustle called Hello Cycle where I'm doing that. So probably that's what I'll do in retirement is at least have some type of sustainability related side hustle.

Ben Smith:

Awesome. Well, Marty, thank you for all that because obviously, what's pretty cool is obviously we're talking future of energy use in Maine with you today. But I just got to commend your personal energy in the passion that you bring towards, not only just the state of Maine, not only just the entrepreneurial area, but life in general. I really applaud everything that you're bringing to life and what you're doing today because I think it really shines through. So I really can't thank you enough for coming on our show, and sharing with us all these thoughts. Because I think this is something I'll have to get a few more listens in on because I think you're spelling out a few ideas. Like I'm writing that down. I got to check that out.

Curtis Worcester:

I'm going to look for a bike.

Ben Smith:

Yes.

Marty Grohman:

Yeah. [inaudible 00:51:39] the bike. Weed out nine of my ideas, but keep one, and that could be the one.

Ben Smith:

So Marty, thank you so much. And we will catch you next time. So I thought Marty, did a really great job today really going through again, the future of energy use in Maine. And again, Marty has just a really great through thread where he's got just a really big passion for sustainability. He's got a passion for the state of Maine, obviously, going away coming back. And I think that really shone through today. And somebody from a obviously a podcast perspective, we're looking at who else is doing podcasting in the state of Maine. That's his show the Grow Maine Show is something that we were modeling after a little bit, and delight to talk to him was really kind of a treat personally for us too. But of course, with all of our shows, we like to wrap them up with lessons, or something that we took away from today's show. So Curtis, would you mind maybe just giving us your yellow highlighter is something that you took away from Marty show with us today?

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah. Sure I think you hit the nail on the head with overall and how great Marty was just on the topic as a whole, but I thought it was really interesting, thinking about our show, and the topic today, and just how everything kind of came full circle. So we talk a lot about aging in our homes, and what we can do to better our lives in retirement on the show. And then we took the energy aspect today. And what I mean by coming full circle is Marty shared the story about the individual, he knew who still has a wood furnace which is great, it's a great cheaper alternative. But as that individual ages, it's probably not realistic that he can keep chopping wood when he's 85 years old. And I think Marty shared, he's got like two or three years in advance right now pre chopped and stacked, which is impressive on its own. But you're lugging it in and out of the house. You could fall, or you could get hurt, or you maybe just can't swing an axe when you're 85 years old.

Curtis Worcester:

I think that's nothing wrong with that. So the improvements that Marty shared that we can, or the changes we can make to our homes, whether it's... He talked about the pellet silos and how it's kind of an automatic feeder, going solar, if you can to alleviate some of that manual labor of a wood furnace, which again, is a great alternative to oil. But as you age, I don't know. I thought it was really good how Marty... It all just tied together nicely. And that this idea of aging in our homes that we've talked about so much, and then on top of it, you have the energy benefits, and you're still not burning so much oil, and I don't know. I really thought it was really cool how it did come all together for us there.

Ben Smith:

Yeah. And I think really the point there is really all these, and when I say alternative energy, I'm not thinking just like the energy efficient stuff like the wind and the solar, but there's lots of different ways to either power your home to heat your home. And sometimes like the effort to kind of go through that to figure out these alternatives were more difficult than actually just staying where they were, right? So it was, "Yes, you can save money, but there's something you're giving up." And Curtis, to your point is, the late '70s early '80s when oil prices were going to the moon, I think a lot of homes switched to wood stoves and switched in to save money. And we've seen that thread happen over the years. And I think with thematically seeing it from our own perspectives, energy or alternative energy or green energy tended to be more effort or more work in different ways to kind of get things set up. And then again, you didn't know sustainability of the technology. Now, I think all those are become more mainstream.

Curtis Worcester:

Yes. It's here.

Ben Smith:

What I'm hearing you say and what I heard from Marty is that it's here, as he's saying, he's putting biofuel right within his furnace, right? So he didn't have to convert and do all these other things to it. It was just all ready to go. And these things are just going, how do we make this work so it's easier for people so too, they can get it adopted? And make it easier for them to then now only do what's better for the environment. They can also save money, and also save on the aging component of, "I don't have to do manual work where I can get hurt."

Curtis Worcester:

Exactly.

Ben Smith:

And really impede my lifestyle. So I think that's a really kind of a cool thing from today. And all add to it as well from the state of Maine perspective. It's really just cool about what we're seeing from the state and I know, Curtis, you asked about Habib Dagher and offshore wind. So you're seeing cutting edge technology from the very large scale side and in addition to the micro scale, like each of our homes, and what's happening, but we know when Marty's throwing out, "Hey, we need 2000 megawatts in terms of power generation." Again, you'll get a power generation, but also power and maybe the pollution output from that. And looking at it that there's a lot of thinking around, "Hey, how can energy or Efficiency Maine really help push the needle?" I know we answered the question too, yes, we're both burning oil. But we're also going to heat pumps, right?

Curtis Worcester:

Exactly.

Ben Smith:

And using those rebates to then put in heat pumps, which on days like today as we're joking is 90 degrees out, having a heat pump in your home that's cooling it at the same time is really nice as well. So while we do still have oil in our homes, we're still reducing the footprint and the majority of family and friends that I have too, we all have experienced putting in a heat pump because it's very affordable now and it's so easy, and it's just so nice. So again, from that I think there's a lot of theming from the state perspective, that it goes all the way from the micro to the macro level. And you're seeing lots of things. I thought Marty covered that really well today. As always we want to wrap up our show with giving out our show notes. So if you want to read more obviously, we got a lot of things that Marty was bringing up here today. And we'll list them on our blog post on the show notes. So if you go to blog.guidancepointllc.com/46 because we're episode 46.

Curtis Worcester:

46.

Ben Smith:

To get more information on the future of energy use in Maine and a little bit more about Marty, you can go there, check it out, but always appreciate you tuning in. I can't thank you enough for giving us a little bit of your time and hearing from a little bit about our show and Marty today. So thank you so much and we'll catch you next time.