Transcript

Ben Smith:

Welcome, everyone, to the Retirement Success in Maine Podcast. My name is Ben Smith. I'm joined, as usual, with my colleagues, Abby Doody and Curtis Worcester, the KC135 and F16 to my Gulfstream. How are you guys doing today?

Curtis Worcester:

Doing good, Ben. How are you?

Abby Doody:

How are you?

Ben Smith:

Good. I put you guys as the military aggressive piece, and I'm the fast, sleek one. But, of course, we did planes as the intro here today, so the theme that we're looking at is actually the world of piloting over 50 is the title of today's show. And really, the thought being of piloting and accessing the piloting world and flight world was the idea of, what if there is a time machine, and how would that change our lives? How would you do things differently if you could?

Ben Smith:

Really, the point about piloting is that we're doing a different take on that as a time machine. You can get to places where you want to quicker and give you more time to do things that you want, and maybe explore things that you hadn't seen or see things from different angles. So really, as we're aging especially, we tend to be a bit more sensitive to how we spend our time and what we do with our time.

Ben Smith:

A lot of times in our client meetings, pre-retirees or retirees are really stating the goal to us that they really want to travel to places and experience new things. But sometimes, the biggest issue is getting there. Right? Especially where we are in Maine in the Northeast corner of the country, it's very rural. It's tough to get to point A to point B. And that's the idea of the time machine, right? If it's tough for you to get to where you want to go. But I like where I live. I like Maine. I like maybe being a little more remote.

Ben Smith:

All of those are really good things. We're probably very used to driving to our destinations, especially if you want to go to Boston for ... Abby is sitting in Northern Maine right now, way Northern Maine in Aroostook County. For her to get to Boston, you're talking about a maybe six-hour or seven-hour drive, one-way, to get there. Those are things that all of us really face by being in Maine. Sometimes it's really hard to access things.

Ben Smith:

What if you could get there in half the time or a third of the time? What if you were going to winter in Florida, or Larry enjoys Pelletier in North Carolina? And you want to go back and forth, but it takes multiple full days to drive there. And you're getting older, and you're a little more uncomfortable doing it that way. What if you could do that in one day? That's the idea here. What about there's longer trips maybe, that I always want to go to Arizona, but I'm at the whim of the commercial airline industry and their schedule?

Ben Smith:

Especially in today's day and age where we've had obviously gone through coronavirus, and obviously that's a concern too, flying with lots of people. Here's the concept we're thinking about is the concept of private flights and really finding true location freedom in retirement. That's where we're thinking of and why we reached out to our next guest. Our next guest is the eastern regional manager at Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association, AOPA. You might have heard that acronym before. And his role is, he advocates for the general aviation interests for AOPA and its members at the state and local level from Maine to Virginia.

Ben Smith:

In my eye, I think of AAA for people that drive cars. He also works to build the general aviation community and represents the AOPA at local original aviation events. And he does obviously represent that part, but he has a commercial pilot certificate with instrument and multi-engine ratings as well, so he's done that side. I want to welcome to the Retirement Success in Maine Podcast, Sean Collins. Sean, welcome to the show.

Sean Collins:

Hey, good morning. Thank you for having me.

Ben Smith:

Yeah. Well, welcome. One thing that we always like to do with all of our guests is to dig into a little bit of you and your background. Maybe you could just spend a moment with, again, your background, where you grew up, where you're from, and your path towards becoming a pilot, but also to AOPA.

Sean Collins:

Sure, absolutely. I actually grew up right down the road in Wellington, Maine. I went to Brewer High School and graduated in 2003. And from there, I attended Bridgewater State College, now a state university in Bridgewater, Massachusetts. While there, I earned a bachelor's degree in aviation science with a double concentration of aviation management and professional pilot, which is where I got my pilot certificate through commercial as well as my other ratings.

Sean Collins:

From there, I got my job with AOPA in the Pilot Information Center in the summer of 2007, and I've actually remained with the organization for about 13 years since then in various capacities. Growing up in the Bangor area affords one a unique opportunity to see a lot of interesting aircraft come in and out of the Bangor International Airport. I think it was really from that experience growing up that really led to my interest and desire at a very early age to become a pilot. And I'm just fortunate that I was able to press ahead and follow that dream through to fruition.

Ben Smith:

One of the things that I know, Sean, you and I have a personal connection, and family member is my wife Kara is cousins with Sean. And one thing just knowing Sean over a lot of my life is seeing, as he's growing up into what's called Ace Camp. It's really this getting youth involved in terms of aviation, getting to experience it. Can you talk a little bit about that experience because I know that you went from ... you attended, but also was a counselor for ACE Camp as well?

Sean Collins:

Yeah. For any kid who's interested in aviation, it's akin to space camp, which maybe your listeners had heard about growing up. But this is something that was local and tangible for me. And at that time, it was a week-long overnight camp. It was a program sponsored by the FAA as well as the Maine Air Guard. And a number of states have these. But essentially, they are independent-run camps, and it's really all about aviation exposure, not just flying and being pilots but air traffic control, airport management, airport firefighters, maintenance technicians, everything is really what it was intended to do, is to expose you to the different facets of aviation.

Sean Collins:

And certainly, from that, I attended four years as a camper, and then went back and was a counselor for, I think, two years – something that’s near and dear to me, and a number of pilots across the state of Maine.

Ben Smith:

Pretty cool because, again, from my end is here's somebody that, just from when you're much younger, you had this interest. Your parents helped you explore that interest. It turned into, "Hey, this is somewhere I want to be." You go to Bridgewater State. You explore a lot of different areas. You then go, "Hey, well, where can I make a difference, and how can I really get the lay of the land in the industry?" Now you're with AOPA. Can you talk a little bit more about AOPA and what they, as an organization, really do, and then your role because I know you have a pretty widespread role with AOPA as well?

Sean Collins:

Right, absolutely. AOPA is the world's largest aviation membership organization. We represent approximately 330,000 aircraft owners and pilots across the country. We were established in 1939, and since that time, we've been committed to ensuring the safety, future viability, and the development of what is the general aviation industry as an integral part of the national transportation system. I should cover that general aviation is all aviation excluding the airlines and the military. So every other facet of aviation falls into this general bucket that we call general aviation.

Curtis Worcester:

Interesting.

Ben Smith:

Hm, gotcha. In terms of your role, can you just talk a little bit about when you say ... when we say you're advocating for general interests? What does that mean that you're actually doing on a day-to-day basis when you advocate?

Sean Collins:

Sure, absolutely. Not unlike your comparison to AAA, that is very much how we operate. We're here to represent our members, which are aircraft owners and pilots. My function as a regional manager is primarily at the state legislative level and then at the airport level. I advocate for pro-general aviation legislation at the state level and in my 13 states or oppose negative legislation. And that can take the form of supporting funding for airports in the state. That could also be trying to oppose taxes that unfairly affect aviation versus other forms of transportation, things along those lines.

Sean Collins:

On the airport side of it, there's a number of different facets that we try to help. Certainly we try to help our pilots with the issues that they have at airports, but more importantly, we try to help airports with their issues in their communities. Oftentimes, sometimes folks who live near an airport but don't like aviation or the noise that sometimes comes from it will complain about it, so that might be an example where I would go out and try to help the airport explain its value to the community and try to help find a solution to those issues.

Ben Smith:

Gotcha, like it. Well, Sean, really excited to have you on the show today because, again, from our end, we hear from a lot of our clients about, "Hey, I have an interest in ... Hey, I want to do things more quickly. I want to get to places more quickly. I want to maybe experience something." The idea of private flights and thinking about accessing the flying planes just seems a little scary if you've never done that before and you don't really know where to start. That's really the premise of today's show.

Ben Smith:

It's really, "Hey, I've never done this. I really don't know where I'm going. I don't know how to get started. I want to start accessing this world." In terms of the questions that we're going to cover today, is really this thought of the 101 lesson here of how do I access this world. And again, maybe there's some issues as we age, and we want to talk to you about that as well.

Ben Smith:

Let's really start with the appeal of piloting private planes. What is it that really appeals to people to pilot their own plane to different locales? Why would you do that? Why wouldn't you just ... Again, from a commercial perspective, you can just go to your local commercial airport, hop on a commercial flight, and do this. Why have people done more of this private piloting?

Sean Collins:

Sure. Well, like anything, you ask 100 people why they like something, you're going to get 100 slightly different answers. For the most part, in aviation, I think you find that a majority of pilots view flying as the ultimate expression of freedom, go where you want, when you want, and how you want to do it on your time. So that's part of it, and you covered it in the intro. Aircraft afford one ... It is a time machine, and when used correctly in certain situations, it can also be a money saver relative to the airlines.

Sean Collins:

There is always an expense associated with it, but in that sense, it's not really any different than boating, sailing, or other common forms of recreation, even here in Maine. I think the real appeal of it is, again, it's really that freedom aspect, do what you want when you want to of it. And we also have a much better view.

Abby Doody:

A lot of times, when people talk about doing something new, that can make them scared to try something different, especially something like piloting. If someone has never piloted a plane before but wants to get started, what would you advise, and where do they even start to do this?

Sean Collins:

Yeah, absolutely. We actually hear that a lot. In fact, I referenced it earlier, I started my career at AOPA in the Pilot Information Center, which is a technical call center that we'd get calls from everything, from our members to non-members who are interested in flying. And that's probably what we hear more often than not. I've always had an interest in it, but I'm a little afraid to do it. And I've just been-

Abby Doody:

Yeah.

Sean Collins:

Well, so the first advice that we give is go have an introductory flight. Try it out. Most flight schools will provide what is called an intro flight, an introductory flight. And that's usually a reduced cost flight experience. It's a little bit more than a flight-seeing flight where you're paying to be showcased around an area, so to speak. In this case, the intro flight is an opportunity for you to actually get in the airplane with a flight instructor and get a little bit of that flying experience yourself.

Sean Collins:

And so always, that's our first recommendation because it's possible you could decide after you've done, "Ah, maybe flying is not for me." And that's okay too. It's certainly better to figure that out before you show up wanting to learn to fly than afterwards. So that's usually the first step that we recommend.

Curtis Worcester:

Say I do something like that, and I do that intro flight, then I'm ready to go. I want to do it. What is that process like for me to get my pilot's license? Can you talk about that for a little bit?

Sean Collins:

Yeah, absolutely. Typically, what will happen after that intro flight is you'll sit down and talk with the instructor or representative of the flight school, and they'll explain a lot of this to you at that time.

Curtis Worcester:

Okay.

Sean Collins:

There's a couple of different options that people have to learn to fly, and the most common that people have heard of is becoming a private pilot. Typically, that's the first stage, the first thing that you'll do. And that affords the most freedoms or privileges, I guess I should say, with regard to your training options.

Sean Collins:

Now, there are other options or other routes that people could go to learn how to fly. But I guess as a comparison, with the private pilot being the most common, that actually requires a minimum of 40 hours of flight training, or you take a-

Sean Collins:

to actually become certificated to be a private pilot. Some of the other options include sport pilot, and then everything is a bit of a give and take. Being a private pilot, you have to go and get what's called your flight medical, and that can present a hurdle for somebody that has certain medical conditions, depending upon what those are. The alternate to that, if you're otherwise still healthy and capable of flying, is going the sport pilot route.

Sean Collins:

The primary difference between the two is becoming a sport pilot only requires about 20 hours of flight training, but you're limited to a much smaller set of aircraft that you're permitted to fly. And that, in itself, isn't a bad thing, but because that program is so strict on the basis of what you're allowed to fly, those options might not be as common for you in your area as they are to become a private pilot.

Curtis Worcester:

Gotcha, okay.

Ben Smith:

Hey, Sean, does that limit you in terms of where you can fly in terms of the private license versus the sport license, if you could go over state lines or in a region relative to an airport?

Sean Collins:

From a practicality standpoint, it doesn't limit your destination per se, but being the smaller aircraft, that does have some operational limitations on it for a given place.

Ben Smith:

Makes sense.

Sean Collins:

And some of the other aspects of that is it's limited, for the most part, to daytime travel and below 10,000 feet. Again, the type of aircraft you would fly as a sport pilot, you're probably not going to be over 10,000 feet anyway. Even myself, as a commercial pilot, just the nature of the type of flying that I do, rarely, if ever, am I over 10,000 feet. And that's just the nature of the aircraft that I choose to fly.

Sean Collins:

There are some operational restrictions, but again, if your role is just to have fun and fly on good weather days with no more than your spouse and one other passenger, then the sport pilot would be the way to do that at a reduced cost entry point as well.

Curtis Worcester:

Interesting. I want to follow up on the license topic. Now fast forward to I have a pilot license. Similarly, or I don't know if it's similar, that's my question for you. In the state of Maine, for example, when you have a driver's license, as you age, you have to have it renewed. When you hit a certain age, you have to start doing eye exams, and other medical restrictions may come in at that point. Is there a similar progression with a pilot's license, or is it a one and done situation?

Sean Collins:

Well, it's somewhat similar and very different. Once you've earned a pilot's certificate, it's yours for life. You don't have to renew your pilot's certificate. And that's an exciting part for a lot of folks in aviation because, unlike a state driver's license, which is state-issued, your pilot's certificate is issued by the FAA. So it's a federal form of identification on some level, but it's a federal certificate.

Sean Collins:

Where it's similar, though, is we have the medical side. And then we also have the FAA's recency flight experience flying, so just because you have a pilot certificate doesn't necessarily mean you're safe to fly on a given day.

Curtis Worcester:

Gotcha.

Sean Collins:

The FAA has fairly strict standards that we have to maintain our currency to be able to fly ourselves, and an even a higher currency to be able to fly other people. So that is how we ensure, again, the minimum level of safety beyond what you would expect with the automobile. Right? As long as you have your driver's license, you can jump in and go. You can't necessarily do that in an airplane.

Sean Collins:

Some might view that as a hurdle to flying, but actually, the one thing pilots love to do is fly, so training is usually a welcome experiment because it's just another excuse to get out there.

Curtis Worcester:

I like that.

Sean Collins:

Now, on the medical side of it, there are some currency requirements for that. Generally, there's three types of medicals. We have a first-class, second-class, and third-class. The process of the medical is actually the same. Really, the difference is how long that certificate is valid for. If you're an airline captain, for instance, you have to have a first-class medical, and that means those privileges allow you to exercise your airline transport certificate credentials for only six months at a time. And you have to renew that medical certificate every six months. Why is that? Because that's the FAA's way to ensure that the captain on your airline is less likely to have a medical event while they're flying you on the airplane.

Sean Collins:

Conversely, a private pilot who's only going to, for the most part, fly his or herself and family members, they only have to get a third-class medical. And the difference is, if you're under age 40, that third-class medical can be valid for up to five years, five calendar years is how we say it. If you're over age 40, it's valid for 24 calendar months or two years, so you'd have to renew that every two years.

Sean Collins:

Now, there are certain medical conditions out there that are automatically disqualifying. There's 15 of them, I believe, is the total. But those are things like bipolar disorder or epilepsy. I'm actually getting a list up here. Psychosis, and the two that are really the most common inhibitors would be substance abuse or substance dependence, and I'll say for obvious reasons. Those are the folks where the FAA would say that, unfortunately, in those circumstances, you cannot get a medical, and therefore, wouldn't be able to get a pilot's certificate.

Sean Collins:

But outside of that, there's a number of medical conditions that the FAA would be interested in. As part of the medical process, you actually have to go to what's called an aviation medical examiner. And it's possible that your own healthcare provider could be an aviation medical examiner. It's just a certification that the FAA gives. And really, you have to get your physical, which is what it is, your flight physical, and they're verifying that whatever medical conditions you have aren't the type that are going to impair your ability to fly the aircraft.

Sean Collins:

And sometimes, it's not even the medical condition that can cause an issue. There could be a concern with medications. They would be able to help you figure out, are you naturally safe to fly. After you do that intro flight, the very next thing that we recommend that somebody does, if they decide they are interested in this, they need to meet with their closest aviation medical examiner because that's really the person to ask can you get your medical certificate.

Ben Smith:

It makes sense in lots of different levels. Right. You don't want to be ... I don't know if this is the case, but say I'm on a really heavy dose of a blood pressure medication, and basically, because of that, maybe that allows me to ... because of a certain flight maneuver, air pressure change or something, and that causes me to have maybe a health event in the sky. That's obviously the type of thing that wants to be avoided by going through that level of rigorous health screening. Right?

Sean Collins:

Right, absolutely. Heart conditions are probably some of the more common that the general public experience is. And high blood pressure is probably the most common issue if we can use that term loosely there, a pilot would experience. And, obviously, that can affect otherwise normally healthy people. So high blood pressure in itself isn't necessarily a concern, but as it's an indicator of other issues, then it's something that the FAA and maybe your primary doctor would be interested in anyway.

Sean Collins:

Sometimes the issues that we see with that aren't actually the condition. Again, it's medication or the combination of medications that they take, and exactly for that reason. And so, if you happen to have a condition that is an allowable condition, that's when you would want to work with your primary healthcare provider and your aviation medical examiner to identify what medications might be a better alternative if, for instance, there's a problem with whatever it is you're taking. But again, that's one of those things that's an otherwise very easy thing to overcome if you happen to run up against that.

Ben Smith:

I think what we're hearing you say, Sean, is that it's really not an aging concern is what the FAA would have an issue with. Right? The issue being of, hey, that I've developed some sort of health condition and that the health condition and/or the combination of medications to treat the condition could create an issue if I was piloting a plane. And that's why they want to be very careful on making ... So it's not that, hey, I'm 90 years old, and because I'm 90, I can't do this. But if I'm 90 and healthy, and I don't have any other health conditions, that would maybe not be ... The number age is probably not the issue. It's more the health issues that might go along with aging itself.

Sean Collins:

Correct. In terms of the FAA and flying, aging is not an issue. In fact, I know a number of pilots and flight instructors, active flight instructors, who are in their 90s and still going strongly because that's what they love. The wonderful thing about an older, experienced pilot is that experience that they have. Age in itself should never be a restrictor for someone interested in learning to fly.

Ben Smith:

Nice. I know that's something where I think that would be a worry that, again, our clients are telling us is, "Hey, if I started at 55, or I started at 65, that maybe at 67, I do all of this work, and now I can't fly anymore because all of a sudden, I'm aged out of it or something." Right? So I think that's some of the myth there. I think you helped dispel that. It's not that I do all of this work, and I get one year of actual enjoyment out of it. But yeah, that could serve you pretty well for a long period of time.

Sean Collins:

Yeah. I guess, as an aside to that, our average member is about 47 years of age. But the average aircraft owner is about 65 to 67 years of age.

Ben Smith:

Oh, nice.

Sean Collins:

I think that probably follows along with the nature of our lives. Right? Because at that point, we're at a stage in our life where we tend to have more time and money available relative to the earlier stage in life where we're raising children. Quite ironically, I guess your core client is our core member.

Ben Smith:

Right. And I think that is where we're trying to go with this is, hey, this is something where look, people are retiring, and then they have access to a lot of wealth. But the idea of, well, this is meant to provide for me over the course of my life and my spouse's life, or my family's life here, and I don't want to be frivolous with it. I don't want to then just spend all of it in three years, then I don't have anything else to live on.

Ben Smith:

That goes to this idea of affordability. Right? One of the things, Sean, that you mentioned, which piqued my ears a little bit previously, was, hey, sometimes private flights and flying or piloting yourself can be cheaper than commercial airlines at times. That would not have been my first thought is, "Okay, you're going to learn how to fly. You're going to have to either rent a plane or buy a plane." Help me understand here. I want to hear a little bit about the affordability to pilot and fly planes first. And I've got several more follow-ups on budgeting and the pricing of it. But can you talk about who can afford it because I think that would be a core concern of our clients there?

Sean Collins:

Right. There's a number of ways to answer that question. Right? Who can afford it? I know there are many high school teachers who are pilots. I know truck drivers who are pilots. But on the other end, I know doctors and lawyers who are pilots. In terms of who can be a pilot, anybody that wants to be a pilot can be a pilot. But as I said before, there is a cost associated with learning to fly.

Sean Collins:

To get the private pilot certificate today, you're probably looking about spending around $8,000 to $9,000 here in the state of Maine to get your private pilot certificate. But a lot of that is intended to ensure that you're going to keep yourself safe. On some level, you're really making an investment in yourself to be safe, to do something that you really want to do.

Sean Collins:

Now, where I suggested that flying can be a cost-saver over the airlines, that's all relative, of course, to how much someone wants to travel. By the same token, if you're going to go from here to Florida a bunch of times or out to Arizona, it really depends upon how frequently you're doing that. And how much you're spending at the airlines, obviously, would dictate what your savings is going to be.

Sean Collins:

When you're paying for your airline ticket, you're not buying an airplane and having to pay for its maintenance. But your hourly operational costs you get from here to Florida might only take you three hours in an airplane, depending upon what you have or are capable of getting. And in that timeframe, you might spend $500 or $600, and you're taking yourself and your spouse, and the two family dogs, and all of your gear with you. Where on the airlines, you're likely to spend upwards of $800 to $1,000 to get everybody else there.

Sean Collins:

Is the cost of ownership greater in this circumstance? In the bigger picture, yes. But in the smaller window of the time it takes you to get from point A to point B, you're going to spend less money on that flight than you would going through the airlines. But you're also cutting out all the other aggravations too, right? In aviation, we don't really have to deal with TSA like you do when you have to get to your flight at least two hours earlier. Not in pandemic time, it's probably three or four hours earlier, wait in line with all of these other people, go through security, hope it doesn't been on you, and then wait at your gate. There's an expression we use, which is hurry up and wait.

Sean Collins:

There's not so much of that on our end, at least with the airlines involved. So that's another benefit to it.

Ben Smith:

I guess the question then, affordability-wise, is, do I have to buy a plane? Right? Because, hey, I got my pilot certificate, and I'm able to fly things. Well, then how do I access a plane, and what's the best way to do it? Well, now, as you said, you've got to truck driver that wants to fly a plane. That could be different than somebody says, "Well, I want to buy the plane, and I want to buy a certain plane." Can you talk about that aspect of it? Because I think the access to the plane is a big question of, "Hey, I got my certificate. Now what? And can I afford it?"

Sean Collins:

Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of different options that you have. For instance, I'm a commercial pilot. I do fly for work, but I don't own my own airplane. There was a time where AOPA provided me an airplane to fly when they actually based in Old Town for a year. And before we moved back to Maine, we actually leased an airplane for me to use in Massachusetts.

Sean Collins:

There's a lot of different ways you can do that. But right now, I don't own a plane. So how do I fly? I actually go up to the Hancock County Airport down in Trenton, and I rent aircraft there from the flight school that's based there, so that's one way to do it. It's not unlike riding in a car. Once you become a certificated pilot, you get checked out for insurance purposes with the owner of the flight school to make sure that they're safe and to prove that you're safe as a pilot. But once you do that, and you just get yourself on the schedule, you can take the airplane and go.

Sean Collins:

The truth of it, though, is the majority of folks who fly regularly end up buying their own plane because, on a per hour basis, as long as you're flying 100 hours a year, which, when you own your airplane is not really a hard thing to do, you're actually going to save money by owning your own because you're going to pay that lower hourly cost versus having to pay for the overhead of the flight school and their insurance, and all the other things that a business has to do.

Sean Collins:

Now, in terms of the purchase of an aircraft, people will probably be surprised to learn that the majority of aircraft owned out there are in excess of 20 years in age. And many of them are over 30 years in age, and a lot of them, over 40 years in age. And really, that's a testament of the standards that the FAA has put in place. And that's really where aircraft differ from other things like boats and cars. And some of that is the audience, right? If your car breaks down, which happens to everybody regularly, you can pull over. You can't necessarily just do that in an airplane.

Sean Collins:

And so the FAA ensures by requiring a minimum safety standard. Every year, an aircraft has to go through an annual check. That's not unlike your annual physical when we go to the doctor. That's essentially what we're doing with the aircraft. You can get aircraft. I'll say that the typical aircraft that I fly is one of the most common, the Cessna Skyhawk, which is the equivalent of the four-seat paneling sedan in the aviation world.

Sean Collins:

You could buy one of those today for around $30,000, $35,000. Again, that's not much different than the family car or a boat. Where the expense comes in with the aircraft ownership is, unlike a boat, you can't just necessarily park it in your garage unless, of course, you live in an airpark, which we have a couple here in Maine. And there is a new age coming of the roadable aircraft, which that's the whole thing where you fold up your wings, and you drive it home. But for the most part-

Ben Smith:

Wow! Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Curtis Worcester:

Alright, alright, alright.

Ben Smith:

Time out. Time out. Time out. Time out. Wait, foldable wings, and you drive it home?

Sean Collins:

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, there's a number of startup companies who are looking at those sorts of things.

Abby Doody:

That's awesome.

Sean Collins:

I'm going to screw up the name, but Terrafugia, which is based in Cambridge, Massachusetts. They're probably the most well known here in the United States. But they are working on, let's call it, roadable aircraft. Essentially, it's an aircraft that is approved for use on the roads. And the idea is, you wouldn't travel in it like you do your personal car, but you would drive it home from the airport so you could park it in your own garage.

Abby Doody:

Wow!

Ben Smith:

Wow, that's cool!

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah.

Sean Collins:

Coming to a world near you, I guess.

Ben Smith:

Sean, obviously, you talked a little bit about the plane there and some pricing options. What you just said was, "Hey, the Cessna Skyhawk at $30,000, $35,000, and various levels of use and age there ..." Right? Like anything, I'm sure, look, you could go as high as you want with a plane, just like a car. You want the Lambo, you could go all the way up as much as you want. But in terms of other costs, I think some of the concern here is the gotcha cost.

Ben Smith:

Okay, alright, got the plane, got the certificate. I'm flying, and I fly to Florida. I land in a local airport. What other costs are there around it? I'm thinking fuel. It's not like you're going and you're buying your regular unleaded at the gas station here. Fuel is a concern. But also, in terms of parking, whether I'm storing my plane or I'm, again, as you said, renting, do I have local airport costs, but also destination costs there? And I'm just thinking about now when I get to my destination, it's not like I have a car. I might be at a different airport as well, so there might be some cost in terms of the transportation out of the airport. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Sean Collins:

Sure, absolutely. As you say, the gotcha cost, the cost to getting into aviation with an aircraft, the expense isn't really the aircraft itself. And just as you said, depending upon what you want for an airplane and what you're looking for, the type of flying that you plan to do will ultimately dictate how much you're going to spend on the aircraft. And brand new aircraft are very expensive, but that's not unlike a sports car, for instance. And there's a lot of folks that are into cars, and they've got that classic car.

Sean Collins:

We see a lot of that mentality in the aviation world. That's their baby, and so they're going to put their money into that. But again, that part's not required. The part that is required again is that annual maintenance. And then, unless you do have the roadable aircraft, you're parking in your own garage, or you're fortunate enough to live on an airpark, you have to store your aircraft somewhere. Typically, that's either going to be as tie-down in the airport, which is usually the cheapest thing to do, or you have the aircraft in a hangar, which is what we like to do in the Northeast because we get all that snow and ice. That can be an added expense, an added annual expense.

Sean Collins:

And then there's, again, as you said, the fuel cost. You get further per hour in an airplane than you will in a car, but you're going to spend more in fuel to get there if that makes sense. That's another consideration that someone would learn as they get into flight training. Unlike miles per gallon, which is how we gauge automobiles, we gauge gallons per hour in fuel burners. Your operational cost, so to speak, does go up relative to a car, but you get much further down the road, as it were, for that cost.

Sean Collins:

Those are the things that can add up, but again, it's all relative. Right? If you're only going to fly once a year, well, that's an extreme expense for that one flight. But if you're going to fly every week or every couple of days, over the course of the year, you're going to find yourself spending a lot less to enjoy that per unit of time is really how we view that. Those are some of the recurring costs.

Sean Collins:

Of course, the medical aspect of that on the pilot's side of it, if they had medical conditions, the FAA does require that you have to get certain tests done to verify your medical health. Depending upon what medical issues you have, that could be another extraneous expense that's not directly related to the aircraft ownership or the flying that might have to come out of your pocket. Those are some other concerns, again, contingent of one's health. Let me think here. What were some of the other-

Ben Smith:

Like destination costs, because I think some of the concern is ... Say, I fly to Cleveland, Ohio, and then I get clearance to land. I'm making all of this up. I have no idea what I'm talking about. I go into Cleveland. I land. I get off the plane, and I can imagine that someone is screaming at me like, "Okay. By the way, your bill is going to be this for keeping your plane at our airport for the next four days." And there's maybe local taxes or something, which I know that's part of your world as well.

Ben Smith:

Hey, people are landing here, and they tax you based on you coming into their city, or town, or state, or whatever that might be. What about I get there and the other gotcha costs when I get to my locale? Which, it obviously would vary by all the regulations and all the airports. But it just would help to understand the structure of it.

Sean Collins:

Sure, absolutely. That's not unlike flying the airlines. Right? Because once you get to the destination, the airport isn't your destination on the airlines. You've got to go somewhere else, so you've got to figure that out, that logistics aspect too. And that's no different than if you're flying in your personal aircraft. Right? You get to the airport. You've either got to rent a car, or get a taxi, or an Uber, most common, and get to where you're ultimately going.

Sean Collins:

For us, flying oneself is really a means to get to somewhere else. In that sense, you're going to have all of the same logistical issues. In terms of the aircraft at the airport, you've been to one airport, we say you've been to one airport. They're all different, but for the most part, you can expect you would have to pay either what we'd call a tie-down fee or an overnight fee to keep your aircraft ... the privilege of keeping your aircraft at that airport for a period of time.

Sean Collins:

Obviously in Maine, we have a lot of snowbirds who spend a lot of the wintertime in the South. Typically, they're actually, rather than just, as you might for a short trip, just show up and pay the fee, they're actually going to pay for a tie-down through the airport because they're going to be there for if not a couple of weeks, a couple of months at a time. And so there is many different ways to mitigate that seeming upfront cost, but you're right. That is an added expense that you'd have to consider that, at least on the airlines, once you're off the airplane and out of the airport, you don't care anymore. That aspect of it is not a concern for you. There are costs associated with that.

Ben Smith:

Can you give us a range, what a tie-down cost could be? Again, I'm not saying on average it's this, but what is that range in terms of ish, in terms of what you see there for the tie-down? But I think more the destination of, "Hey, I got to pay for the fuel. I rented the plane. I got down there, and now, again, I'm paying for a hotel for my family. I'm doing all of the travel things, but I also got to pay for that plane to be sitting there."

Sean Collins:

Sure, absolutely. Now, like anything in life, it depends on a number of factors. Where are we going? And if you're going somewhere, for instance, to a metropolitan area like around New York, or Orlando, Florida, or even Tampa, Florida might be a better example, you're going to pay more for something the closer you are to that more metropolitan area. And so, again, as I mentioned, there's ways to mitigate that.

Sean Collins:

Well, maybe you don't fly to the closest airport. Maybe you fly to the next closest airport, which is a little smaller, a little further away, but your costs go down dramatically. And that could be not only on the tie-down fee that you're going to pay, the rent fees, but on the fuel costs too. And that can be the biggest differentiator for a lot of folks is where. At an airport around New York, or D.C., or again, a metropolitan area like that, you might pay two and sometimes three times as much for a gallon of fuel at those airports than you would, for instance, in Old Town, Maine, where you might pay $3.50.

Ben Smith:

Wow! That's quite the markup-

Abby Doody:

That's crazy.

Ben Smith:

... on fuel.

Sean Collins:

Right. Now there's a lot of issues in that, but again, my organization works to help improve that scenario. But, again, it's like anything else, you have a cost. Or you have a choice, and every choice has consequence associated with it. Oftentimes, we'll encourage folks to go to that smaller airport that's a little further away and be willing to drive a little more when you get to your destination to save yourself so much on cost.

Sean Collins:

But in terms of actual numbers, a typical overnight fee, usually if you park for just a couple of hours, they're not going to charge you for that parking. But if you're going to stay overnight, it could be, on the low side, $10.00 a night to the high side, again, using the type of aircraft that I referenced earlier, the four-seat Cessna Skyhawk, it could be as much at $25.00 or $30.00 a night, again, if you're close to a metropolitan area.

Ben Smith:

I was envisioning much more.

Curtis Worcester:

Yes.

Abby Doody:

Me too.

Ben Smith:

Oh, okay. Whew. With that, we're okay.

Sean Collins:

There's so many factors that the business at that airport would consider in how they're going to charge. If you're rolling up in a brand new Cirrus SR22, which is the premier private aircraft that has a parachute system, and folks may have heard of that, and a brand new one of those could be $800,000, they're going to charge you a lot more for their services than someone who's pulling up in a $35,000 Cessna Skyhawk.

Ben Smith:

Gotcha.

Sean Collins:

And that's the nature of the game. But as somebody gets into training, and they've already made a conscious decision for the type of aircraft they're going to purchase, chances are, those fees or those costs are correlated with the type of aircraft and the type of flying that they do.

Ben Smith:

But what you said is pretty important because somebody is flying to Florida and, all of a sudden, an hour and a half into your trip, the son in the back or the daughter in the back has to use the bathroom, or we've got to stop because we're actually doing some touring along the way. And we wanted to go over certain sites. So we used more fuel than maybe we thought we were going to use on the way down because we took a detour here or there. We've got to fill up with gas. We've got to use the bathroom. If you stopped in for a couple of hours, what you're saying for the tie-down fee is there might not be any fee for you just to stop, refuel, get back in the sky.

Sean Collins:

Yeah, that's correct. That's again, so many factors, right? But that's not-

Sean Collins:

driving on the highway and getting off on one exit and going to McDonald's versus the local restaurant, whatever. You're absolutely right. To just make a pit stop, as it were, you might have no cost at all. And oftentimes, what we call those businesses that we stop at, rather than call them a gas station, we call them a fixed-base operator, or for short, an FBO. And they provide those aircraft services and give you an opportunity to get off the airport or on the airport. That's where you go when you land in an airport is the FBO versus the airport terminal, which is where the airlines go, a separate location on the airport.

Sean Collins:

And oftentimes, they'll waive those fees just because you're going to buy fuel most likely. If you're halfway between your destination or your departure and your destination, you're going to buy fuel because you want to make sure you're going to get there. And so they'll waive the other fees because they know you're going to pay for the fuel. Again, there's a lot of different ways to skin that proverbial-

Abby Doody:

We've touched on it a little bit, but what are some of the pros and cons of doing private piloting versus commercial airlines? I would imagine there's quite a few of them, but what are some of the pros and cons?

Sean Collins:

Yeah. Some of them we've mentioned. Right? With the airlines, you don't have to worry about stopping and getting fuel or parking your aircraft, and things of that nature. Those are concerns that you would have even if you're renting an aircraft or flying your own aircraft. Those are the added fees to maintenance fees, is how you might think of them, that we have to worry about.

Sean Collins:

For the most part, for light general aviation, unless you're fortunate enough to be on the end of the spectrum where you can get from here to the other side of the country on one flight, there's always going to be room or a reason to use the airlines, and we don't knock our brothers and sisters in the airlines. They serve a valuable purpose. For myself, I'm not going to fly myself in the aircraft that I use to Arizona. I have family in Tucson, Arizona. If I was going to go there, I'm most likely still going to use the commercial airlines.

Sean Collins:

Conversely, if I had my own airplane, I have family in Florida as well. I might use my aircraft to get to Florida because it's just more convenient. The flip side of that, though, is we're more susceptible to weather considerations. We don't fly in ice, for the most part. And if you're in the middle of a storm, you're more likely to be able to get to your destination on the airlines than you would be in general aviation. Not that you wouldn't get there, but you've got to wait for the storm to pass, and you've got to wait for, again, all of the other things that have to occur for you to make it there safe. Because at the end of the day, that's what it's about, having dun and getting there safely, which can sometimes, in our winter weather, take longer in general, but still more fun.

Sean Collins:

You're not in a crowded airplane with other people stuck in the middle seat. And you don't have to-

Sean Collins:

Again, it's all a balance of pros and cons as you say.

Ben Smith:

I imagine the snacks are way better in the private aviation as well.

Sean Collins:

I tend to think so, yeah. There's more options.

Curtis Worcester:

I know, Ben, when we were talking about the cost a little bit ago, we touched on going places. Just cost aside, I want to talk about the process. Say I'm here. I got my plane rented, or I bought it. I got my license. I'm ready. I want to go and hit five cities. I'm planning this big trip like I would imagine I'd plan a road trip. What is that process like? Do I call up the airports in Cleveland and say, "Hey, I'm coming in"? Or is there a strict process here to plan a trip in your flight maps and all that?

Sean Collins:

Every pilot has their own way of doing things, and that's no different than any other person with anything else. But there certainly are some common things that we all do. The first thing is you've got to plan your flight. Flight planning is very much a part of the safety aspect of flying because you don't want to go fly into a hurricane. The first thing we tend to do is, alright, where do we want to go? What's the weather like?

Sean Collins:

If you're taking a long trip, I might start looking at that information a week out. Right? Because even though we don't care what the weather is right now, depending upon where you're looking in the country, you might get an indication of what things are going to be like a week from now when you get there. I guess I should add, that's a big part of the flight training curriculum, learning to read and understand weather information. Sometimes it can be a little bit dry, but when you start to apply it and actually have to deal with it when you're flying, it becomes a lot of fun for a lot of folks. Because maybe you get to sit home, and when you're watching the weatherman on the channel, you say, "No, that's not right." Or, "Nope, actually, he's making it sound a lot worse than it's really going to be."

Sean Collins:

You'd be surprised how much more accurate you become at forecasting the weather than the weatherman or woman on the local news channel.

Curtis Worcester:

Is it like a two for one certificate? Can I fly a plane and go-

Ben Smith:

Meteorology.

Curtis Worcester:

... work on the news?

Sean Collins:

Absent of the degree, you probably have still a pretty close understanding of weather by the time you're through it. So that's the first part of it, it's, again, checking the weather and understanding what that's going to be like because that'll just determine when you're going to leave and exactly the route you're going to take to get there.

Sean Collins:

Now, once you've got an idea of which way you want to go, one of the big things we have in aviation is redundancy. You've always got to have a backup plan, and it doesn't hurt to have a backup plan for the backup plan. And that's all just because of the reality. It's not because we expect something bad to happen, but we plan for something bad to happen so that if it does, we're prepared for it. That's what the safety aspect of aviation is all about.

Sean Collins:

Ways to do that, as you said, a multi-stop trip, that's hard to do and the airlines. Right? You can't say, "Hey, I want to go to my winter residence in Florida. But you know what? I'm going to go stop and see my friends in D.C., and then we're going to bump out to Tennessee to see a concert in Nashville or something, and then head back to Florida." You can't do that on the airlines without incurring a great expense and wasting a lot of time sitting around the airport. But you can do that in general aviation and a lot faster than you would be able to do it in your car.

Sean Collins:

Once you decide where it is you need to go, or you want to stop, we do recommend that you call that FBO I referenced earlier, the business that accepts the airplane when you get there. And you want to make sure that they are going to have fuel available because some airports don't sell fuel. They're far and few between. But the smaller the airport is, the less services they're likely to have. Those are the things that you'll want to look at and be familiar with before you even step foot in your airplane to get somewhere.

Sean Collins:

You'd also want to find out what are those costs. What's that overnight cost going to be? What other fees might there be? And that way, you already have a pretty good idea before you get in your aircraft what your whole trip is going to cost you because maybe at the end, you're going to cut out a trip or a part of that trip, I guess. I was only going to spend $300.00 on these other fees, but if I go there, that'll be too much. So that's all-

Ben Smith:

Can you negotiate costs?

Sean Collins:

On some level, you can, at some airports. Usually, the bigger the airport is, what you would say inside the industry, the more corporatized an airport is, the less ... I should say, the more rigid they're going to be on price. But again, if you're at more of the mom-and-pop airfield, the local airfield kind of destination, chances are, their fees are going to be so much lower anyway, you're not going to feel the burn to have to negotiate the prices.

Ben Smith:

Gotcha.

Sean Collins:

But again, if you don't ask, you don't know, so that's the part of it.

Ben Smith:

Right. Could you also go through a little bit more of hey, I now landed, now what? I imagine we land, we get off our plane, and what do we do then? I could see where it's like ... I don't know. I'm in a strange place. I don't really know where I'm going. I don't know how to access anything. What do I do after I exit my plane? I've landed.

Sean Collins:

Certainly, for some of your listeners who have never experienced that before, that could seem like a terrifying thing. What are we going to do? But all throughout your flight training process, you'll be visiting other airports and stopping at those places with your flight instructor. So somebody who's been there and done it will have walked you through that process many times. And once you do it once, they're all basically the same in terms of what that experience is like.

Sean Collins:

But when you pull up to the airport or once you land and you taxi to the ramp where you're supposed to be, and you would have an idea of where that is through your flight planning beforehand. And if you didn't, and sometimes you don't, if the airport has an air traffic control tower, you can ask the controllers, "Hey, how do I get to this?" And they'll give you taxi instructions to make sure you're going to the right spot on the airport and you don't end up at the fire station when you want to get to the FBO of the yard.

Sean Collins:

There's a lot of people available to help you throughout this process, I guess, is the point of where I'm getting. And that's true from the day you start flight training to the day you hang up your pilot's certificate and stop flying. There's always someone there to help you on the way.

Sean Collins:

But once you get to there, typically, the FBO is already listening or staff at the FBO, the line service folks, they're already listening to the rated communications. So they know you flew in, and they're going to be on the ramp waiting for you. And they're going to be taxiing you in to the specific parking spot. And some of that is because they deal with aircraft of all different sizes and shapes, and they want to get your aircraft where it's supposed to be so it's not in the way of the corporate jet that's coming in next. They're more than happy to be out there helping you and point you the way or walk you back in to the FBO.

Sean Collins:

And the FBO is very much like the highway rest stop. Right? You might not have restaurants inside to go eat, but there might be a vending machine. There's usually going to be a leather couch. There's going to be TVs, usually free coffee and cookies. That's part of the perks of getting to go to the FBO. Kids certainly love that, and I know I do.

Sean Collins:

Popcorn. That's the other thing most seen. I don't know why that is, but popcorn is always-

Ben Smith:

Okay.

Sean Collins:

It makes you thirsty, so you're going to go buy a Coke. And, of course, restrooms. Usually, they also have a mini kitchen, and that's because a lot of flight crews, charter pilots, and corporate pilots will spend a lot of time in FBOs, so they make them very home-like. Some of them even have movie theaters inside so you can watch a movie if you're going to be there 12 hours for your passengers to come back. But that's-

Ben Smith:

I never thought of that. That's interesting.

Sean Collins:

Yeah, but that's all accessible to us as private pilots. They don't say, "Oh, no. You're not a commercial pilot. You don't get to use this." It's, "Hey, you're our customer. Come on in, and have a good time. Relax, and have fun." That's what it's about. But again, typically, in this circumstance, your destination isn't the FBO. Your destination is in the other corner of the airport, so chances are, they usually have rental cars there at that facility, or they have relationships with the local rental car companies. They'll get you to wherever you need to go to get to that next point on your trip.

Ben Smith:

Gotcha. Can you talk a little bit about ... I know one thing is we've talked about with a previous guest is this idea of living internationally. We had International Living Magazine come on. One of the senior editors there was Dan Prescher. He did a really great job of talking about living in other places, but I could also see where, hey, this concept that we're talking about is piloting equal freedom. And, hey, we're in Maine, and maybe I want to go to Quebec City for the weekend. Or maybe I want to take a flight to ... I get to Florida, and I could go internationally, different places there.

Ben Smith:

I get my pilot's license. Is it, hey, I really can only now fly my plane within the contiguous United States? Can I go other places? Can you talk a little bit about that? Can we, and then what's the process to go in or out of a country?

Sean Collins:

Great question. It can be a complicated answer, so I'm going to do my best to try to simplify it for your listeners. As I mentioned before, our driver's licenses are state-issued. Our pilot certificates are issued by the federal government. Right? And the FAA is only responsible for the US airspace, so to speak. So really, we're only approved to fly in the United States.

Sean Collins:

Now, there are ... I'm sure maybe folks are familiar, generally, with ICAO and ICAO countries, the International Council of Aviation Organizations, I think it stands for. And there's, I think, 125, thereabouts, countries who are ICAO countries. And those are, for the most part, your first world countries. It's the United States, it's Canada, it's Mexico, pretty much all of Europe, Russia, and a number of Asian countries, oh, and the Caribbean, I should add.

Sean Collins:

For the most part, you can fly in an ICAO country, anybody that's a part of that, just as you would here in the United States. When I say that, it's a little tongue in cheek. You have to fly by those countries' flight rules, and every country has their own set of flight rules. The onus of responsibility is on the pilot to understand what those rules are when they get to that country, so there is a lot of homework that goes into that.

Sean Collins:

And I'll add, where I started at AOPA in the Pilot Information Center in the technical call center, we were there to answer those technical questions for our members. And international flight planning was part of that. We don't do the physical flight planning, but we'd helped somebody find the necessary information that they'd need to go to that destination. And there are services out there that people can contract with. Depending upon the type of aircraft you're flying and how extensive your trip is, will dictate the cost of it, but there are businesses out there that will help you plan that trip.

Ben Smith:

Interesting.

Sean Collins:

Now, I will say that, in my end of general aviation, what I call the lower end in terms of the aircraft operational costs, smaller aircraft, it's not every day that somebody flies a Skyhawk, a Cessna Skyhawk four-seat airplane, across the Atlantic because, A, a single-engine airplane over the middle of the ocean is probably not the safest thing to do. People do it every day. People do it safely every day, but they don't necessarily do it for a pure recreational basis as we're talking.

Sean Collins:

For the most part, our members spend most of their international travel going, either to Canada, Mexico, or the Caribbean. And for the most part, you're able to exercise those privileges without much issue here in North America. I will note, though, that general aviation is a unique privilege that we have here in the United States. Canada and Australia are probably the next closest. Europe is very different. General aviation doesn't exist over there in the same way that it exists here. Again, it's just the nature of the structure of their system. But I guess to summarize it, it is so very much more expensive to fly in Europe than it is here. And there's a lot of reasons for that that we won't get into.

Sean Collins:

But this is a very unique privilege that we have here in the United States with our freedom to fly. In a lot of other countries, that freedom does not exist. So it is an option to be able to do that, to fly across the pond as we say, but, again, that's not a typical common thing. That may be where, for the average pilot, the better choice is to go on the airlines because you're more apt to get there faster and with a greater margin of safety.

Abby Doody:

So it's a little fitting that I got this next question because I am not the greatest airline traveler. I get a little nervous in the air. And so, I'm sure a lot of people can relate, and you probably get this question all the time, especially when we hear about little planes crashing. How safe is it, or how risky is it? And does that change for people, specifically the pilots, as they age?

Sean Collins:

Great question. So, yes. When we hear about aircraft accidents, that's very scary. I will say that it does happen. Right? Aircraft are machines. Machines break. And as much as that happens, we're human, and pilots make mistakes too. As I referenced before, training is all about safety. That's really the endpoint of why the FAA stipulates you have to have so many hours in the aircraft. And I'll add that even though the FAA sets that minimum at 40 hours, the average pilot gets around 65 hours before they actually take and pass their check ride. That's just the nature of the training.

Sean Collins:

On the whole, general aviation flying aircraft is one of the safest forms of transportation. Now, it's scary when we hear about it because it is on the news, and pardon the expression, but they blow that story up because it's actually not that common. So when it happens, it ... You are far more likely to get into an accident and get injured in your car today at the end of your driveway than you are to get into an aircraft accident.

Sean Collins:

And again, there's so many factors for why that is. Right? I alluded to the FAA sets very strict safety standards for aircraft, which is why the cost of owning and retaining the aircraft can be that bigger part rather than the actual purchase of the aircraft. We don't really do that in our cars to the same level, I guess, as the FAA requires of us for the aircraft. That's part of the reason.

Sean Collins:

And you had a couple of great questions in there, and I might have to ask you to repeat.

Abby Doody:

Oh, yeah. The other one was, does the safety or the risk change as the pilot's age?

Sean Collins:

Great question. There's a couple of different answers to that. The most direct answer is no. One's age does not contribute to the "safety" of flying. And in my experience, the more life experience a pilot has ... Do you catch my drift?

Abby Doody:

Yeah.

Sean Collins:

... the better pilots they tend to be because they've then seen more experiences. They have that experience to draw on that a fledgling pilot maybe hasn't had that experience. Now, the other part of this we haven't touched on is aircraft insurance. The FAA sets standards, but most everything in the aviation world is really dictated by insurance. And the cost of insurance, not unlike driving a car or other forms of insurance, can increase with one's age. But that has less to do with .... And I'm not an insurance expert, so bear with me when I say this. That has less to do with their physical age and safety and more to do with, I guess, extraneous considerations that go along with being older, which have more to do with the medical side of it rather than the actual flying and being the pilot themselves.

Sean Collins:

That is a consideration, but no, as I mentioned, our average member is about 47 years of age. But the average aircraft owner is 67. And I know plenty of folks flying in their 80s and 90s. In fact, there's a well-known club in my aviation circles called the UFOs, the United Flying Octogenarians. They have a very large following, and I know a number of great pilots who are a part of that, active pilots still flying today.

Abby Doody:

That's great.

Ben Smith:

Sean, I have a ... it's a different slant on piloting. In experiencing aircraft, Abby and I had a client meeting the other day where we asked the client about experiencing aircraft. And he goes, "The one thing I always wanted to do was, again, the faster, the better. I always wanted to get in and experience an F16."

Sean Collins:

Sure.

Ben Smith:

Could somebody do that? Again, these are military aircraft, and they're meant to go super, super fast. If somebody just wanted to experience like I want to get in a F18 Hornet or some military, again, very offensive weapon there, how would they do that? Can they do that? Is that possible?

Sean Collins:

Well, yes, and no. The Air Force Thunderbirds and the Navy Blue Angels, they do give special rides on occasion, but it's not the kind of thing for those aircraft that you just sign up for and you get to do it. And again, unfortunately, I don't know the specifics of how those folks get to do it. Oftentimes, you'll see movie celebrities get to experience that, particularly like in a Top Gun movie would be a great example.

Ben Smith:

Exactly.

Sean Collins:

All of those folks who participated in the 80s making of that movie, the Navy took them all flying to get that experience, so that they could better articulate it because the military knew they were going to benefit from that movie. And the same thing that happened with Top Gun in the 80s has basically happened with Top Gun II, which is slated to come out at some point here in the near future.

Sean Collins:

Those examples do happen. I think it's a sort of ambassador program type thing, where the military does that to give people that experience. But what's more realistic for the average pilot is, there are companies who specialize in giving that experience. The AOPA does not make recommendations for specific companies, so I-

Ben Smith:

Sure.

Sean Collins:

There's a company in Florida. I forget which airport they're based out of offhand, but it's called Stallion 51. If anybody wants to Google that, you'll be able to see it. And you can actually get a ... You have a choice of vintage military aircraft to go fly in up to a P51 Mustang, which, for many of us in the aviation industry, is a premier propeller aircraft to be able to fly. The plane that won World War II, let's mainly say. You can have that experience.

Sean Collins:

Now, it's not cheap. They're a business. You get, I guess it's like an hour flight, potentially, and they'll videotape it. If that's what your desire is, to experience it, they are absolutely amazing dudes.

Ben Smith:

Nice.

Sean Collins:

By the same token, for folks that are at the end of the spectrum, who can maybe have more financial freedom to be able to experience things like that, you can actually buy former military aircraft that are no longer in use. One of the most common, and we actually have an AOPA member who's fortunate enough to own one that's called an L39. It was a Czechoslovakian built aircraft back in the 70s and 80s. But there's actually many of them for sale. And these are the kinds of aircraft where to buy one, it would only cost about $180,000, but it's not the cost of buying it. It's the cost of maintaining it, which can be $7,000 an hour kind of thing.

Ben Smith:

Whew.

Sean Collins:

But for folks that are in that segment of the world where they can afford that, it is very much accessible to those folks.

Curtis Worcester:

Gotcha. Sean, we have reached the end of our episode, and one thing that we love to do with all of our guests is ask one question. It doesn't necessarily pertain to what we've talked about in this episode, but it pertains to our show, the Retirement Success in Maine Podcast. I want to ask you, what is your personal definition of retirement success? Looking ahead in your life, what will you picture your successful retirement to be?

Sean Collins:

Successful retirement, well, as Ben knows, I have two young children, a typical family of four with family dog. So much of our life is spent around rushing from point A to point B. Right? And the uptight part of having to get things done. So, for me, I think the ultimate retirement success is really just the ability to relax and have fun in a way that allows me to do the things that I like to do, which, for me, is flying. It's that ultimate expression of freedom. But it's also bass fishing and playing guitars.

Curtis Worcester:

Awesome.

Sean Collins:

Really, it's just the freedom to be able to relax and do those things that I most enjoy doing.

Ben Smith:

Nice. Well, Sean, really appreciate you coming on our show today. Again, I know me personally, and I can speak for Curtis and Abby here, learned a lot about the world of aviation. This is the world that is not really something we deal with every day, so it's really great to get your expertise. The level, and the width, and the depth of the expertise that we could share with our clients, our listeners, is really valuable. So thanks again, and we'll catch you next time.

Sean Collins:

Absolutely. Thank you all.

Abby Doody:

Thanks.

Ben Smith:

Alright, see you. Really excited to have Sean Collins on the show today, again, accessing the world of piloting over 50. I think he did a really great job giving a really good overview and some insight into some of the things that you should know, some things you should be mindful of when you get into that world. And also, maybe some myth-busting about things that people could be scared of, or especially like, "Hey, here's one of us, and we're aging. We're 85 years old." And maybe the kids are going to say to you, "Hey, you shouldn't be flying because you're this age." There's a lot of mechanisms, a lot of safety things there that I thought Sean did a really good job of going through.

Ben Smith:

But, of course, with all of our episodes, we like to highlight some things that we learned in terms of lessons that we think our clients and listeners would take away. Curtis, you want to kick us off with something that you learned from Sean's discussion with us today?

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah. You touched on it there, Ben, with saying the child says, "Oh, you're 85 years old. You shouldn't be flying." I think that was my natural thought was, age is such a huge factor in this, but Sean proved that wrong. Just because you're 80, or 90, or 70, or whatever, that, on the surface, is not disqualifying for you to go pursue a pilot certificate or keep flying your own plane or renting planes.

Curtis Worcester:

He did a good job explaining the underlying. It's really more important about the medical aspect of it. But I, at 26, could have a medical condition that disqualifies me, but an 85-year-old can still fly. Just because they're 85 doesn't mean they can't.

Ben Smith:

Yeah, and I think that's the drumbeat that we hear about as we're aging. And it may even start as we're turning 50, or 60, or 70, is that there's a drumbeat about getting old. Right? And that, because you're aging, that maybe there's things that people view that you're not capable of or that they express those views that you should be slowing down in certain areas. Again, the fun of what we're trying to do here is that myth-busting of that.

Ben Smith:

Hey, just because I'm 65, and I want to go learn how to fly and maybe buy that Cessna Skyhawk that Sean was talking about at a pretty affordable price, that's something that it's not too late to start. It's not too late to get going. And conversely, again, he said the average age of the aircraft owners was 67. Well, geez, that's right in the wheelhouse to get going right now. You're pretty normal and pretty average at that point, so that's a really cool takeaway.

Ben Smith:

Abby, from your end, what did you take away from the discussion with Sean?

Abby Doody:

I found it really interesting, his description of private piloting versus the commercial airline side. I've only really traveled by commercial airline, and the private side just sounds so much easier to deal with and less time waste, and just really enjoyable. It really intrigued me, honestly, about the whole private piloting thing and learning more about it. I thought that was just really a fascinating side of it.

Ben Smith:

Yeah, and I think ... Actually, one of the contacts we have over at Vanguard, her name is Kelly Ohr. We've mentioned her in the past in terms of getting us access to Mike DeJoseph from Vanguard. She actually has mentioned that her husband is a pilot, and one of the things they do is like, "Oh. Well, we went to Bar Harbor for the weekend." They're in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. They fly up to Bar Harbor. It takes them about an hour, an hour and 15 to get up there.

Ben Smith:

You think of that drive, Portsmouth up to Bangor. So you have about a three, three and a half-hour drive there, another hour and a half down to Bar Harbor. Geez, you're talking four and a half hours each way, and it took her an hour plus to do that run each way in a plane. What a great time saver that is for leaving to touchdown, to get on your ... That weekend trip, it wasn't like you basically took a whole day to now travel on each side of it. You got that whole weekend back, really just with that flight, so pretty cool.

Ben Smith:

I think, from the whole concept of a time machine, is that. There is ways that you're going to save time here, and I guess that feeds right into, "Well, how expensive is a time machine?" That was one of the lessons I wanted to share. Geez, I thought the affordability was ... Again, a lot of the clients that we talk to, they're very much cost-conscious. Right? They're very much about protecting that nest egg, and they're really worried about a frivolous expense that ..."Hey, I spend this much money, and now I've really bankrupted my retirement, the backend of it."

Ben Smith:

Are there ways that I can have the fun, be cost-conscious, and do that? I think Sean did a really good job of going through that. I know we pressed him on ranges of some of these things, and airports, and gasoline, and all of that, and the tie-down fees. I think those are really important things just to explore, but also just to emphasize, it's probably not as expensive as you think it is, that you can do these things. You can go to where you want to go. You can maybe customize your trip a whole lot better, as he said.

Ben Smith:

I want to go to this locale. Go to Tennessee, and go visit a really great country concert, maybe. Go down to Florida. Man, that's not something you could easily do with commercial. Really hard to do. So that was a really, I thought, cool takeaway. But for those that are listening here, again. We're wrapping up our show today. Good to have you on board. Again, our website you can go to is blog.guidancepointllc.com/34. Enter that into your browser. You can come up with this podcast page, find more resources.

Ben Smith:

Actually, Sean is going to work on getting us a whole ton of resources about getting into piloting and some information about AOPA. He has a really good video there as well, about ... It highlights somebody going through their own piloting experience and shows you what it's like to be in the cockpit, be behind the wheel of a plane, flying to different destinations, experiencing family more often, so we'll put that link there too.

Ben Smith:

But really appreciate you tuning in. I know this is an area that's pretty foreign to us, but appreciate having on board. And we'll talk to you next time.