Transcript

Ben Smith:

Welcome everybody to the Retirement Success in Maine podcast. Good to have you along with us today. We're at episode 33. One thing I just wanted to mention, we typically do the big lead-in. We are actually going to do a little bit of a different take. Again, as financial advisors a lot of what our expertise lies in is on the financial planning, of course, and then investment management, and of course we've been getting a lot of questions about what are we thinking of what's happened here in 2020, but what are we thinking now for 2021 and what sort of investments are we thinking about, where are things? I think that was really the purpose of what we wanted to do today.

Ben Smith:

We actually gathered all of our people at Guidance Point Advisors together and want to do a little bit of a round table. If you tuned in, actually in our mid-teens we had round table number one as coronavirus was starting because we were getting lots of these questions, but we thought now is probably a time to do that again. We assembled the team, put together a little bit of a show, so tune in, bear with us here for another second. You'll hear me intro the team and we'll get going.

Ben Smith:

Welcome everybody to the second Guidance Point Advisors round table. Good to join you obviously with getting into just a little bit of an update, what's happening with our firm, but also wanted to just share with you guys out there about what we see happening in the markets, what we're talking about with clients, things like that. That's the purpose of today's video and today's round tables, just to get together and just share some of our team, but also share some of what's been going on in the investment arenas.

Ben Smith:

My name is Ben Smith. I'm an investment consultant with Guidance Point Advisors. One thing that we like to do just to kick off our round table today is have people go around and introduce themselves and also share with us their favorite holiday movie. My favorite holiday movie ... I was raised on action movies so I'm going to go with the controversial ... Die Hard is going to be my favorite holiday movie. I'll turn it over to ... Actually I'll go Abby next, I'm going to go around my screen here a little bit and have Abby introduce herself.

Abby Doody:

Okay. My name is Abby Doody and I'm also an investment consultant at Guidance Point Advisors. My favorite holiday movie is National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation. I think it's so funny. I watch it multiple times a year and I love it.

Ben Smith:

That is my in-laws' favorite movie, they watch that from Thanksgiving Day all the way through the holiday season, so lots of cousin Eddie in our family too. Wes, I'll go to you next, have you kick that off.

Wes Del Col:

Sure. Wes Del Col, managing partner of Guidance Point Advisors. In our household there's no question, it's Elf. We love it, we watch it every year. Kind of kick starts the holiday feel in our household, just a good comedy. Will Ferrell is hard to beat.

Ben Smith:

That's a good one. I like it. Chris. How about you?

Chris Del Col:

Chris Del Col, another investment counselor at Guidance Point. Wes and I have the same taste. Elf is my favorite, Will Ferrell is awesome.

Ben Smith:

Okay. Singing holiday grams is certainly the flavor there. A.J., I'll go to you next.

A.J. Walker:

Yeah. I'm A.J. Walker, an investment consultant with Guidance Point Advisors. I think mine would be ... A couple have already come up that I like a lot. Trading Places is great, it's an old one. Yeah, it's a great movie.

Ben Smith:

All right, nice. Larry, I'll turn it over to you.

Larry Pelletier:

Hi, I'm Larry Pelletier and I'm a consultant also with Guidance Point. My favorite one is one that everybody loves, It's a Wonderful Life.

A.J. Walker:

You can't go wrong with that one, Larry.

Larry Pelletier:

Multiple times every year.

Ben Smith:

Well, you know you can always catch it on TV too, right?

Larry Pelletier:

Absolutely.

Ben Smith:

It is always on. I'm going to turn it over to Curtis next, batting cleanup.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah. It's Curtis Worcester. I work up in Maine with Ben and Abby primarily, but certainly ... I'll go controversial, I think, a little bit. In my opinion a rare occurrence where a second movie is better than a first, and I'm going to go Home Alone 2: Lost in New York. It's my favorite, it's the go-to. Probably watched it five times at this point and we'll keep going.

Ben Smith:

I've got to give Curtis heck because as I was growing up Home Alone was the thing. Everybody watched Home Alone on VHS tape over and over and over. I can't say two is better than one, I don't think anything knocks that off the table, but we'll agree to disagree.

Curtis Worcester:

Okay.

Ben Smith:

Glad to have everybody here, again just to share a little bit of ourselves for the holiday season as well. But one thing I wanted to just do is, of course we're getting lots of questions about in terms of our reviews when we're sitting down with the clients about what's been going on with 2020 in terms of investment results. Obviously there's lots of world events that have happened that have impacted the investible markets, but love to just get everyone's maybe 30-second take to a minute take on what they're seeing in the markets or again, looking backwards for 2020. Maybe Wes, do you want to start off there to just lead us off?

Wes Del Col:

Sure. I think the one thing I think about when we look back at 2020 from an investment perspective is I think for all of us, at least as advisors, it was a great year, and we're still in that year, a great opportunity for us to gauge our clients' true risk tolerance, right? Because we've all sat down and had meetings and we discuss our asset allocations with them and people feel comfortable in a relatively normal, bouncing around market. But as we all know this year we experienced tremendous upheaval towards the end of that first quarter and then obviously we had a very strong V-shaped recovery and I think other people can document ... There were some tech titans obviously that led the way, obviously we had a ton of fiscal stimulus to support things as well.

Wes Del Col:

But to me, one very interesting aspect of that looking back and one thing I think we've all talked about and tried to learn from is how did people respond to that? Because I think it gave us a very good ability to gauge that in our clients. I think it also gave our clients a great ability to gauge us in terms of how interactive we were, what was our outreach like? What were we like as advisors and counselors during that time? When I think of 2020 from that regard, that's the first thing that comes to mind.

Wes Del Col:

The other piece of it though that I think is really important as it relates to the investment results is, if you look at how quickly the recovery took place it's given me some level of concern that clients, that sort of snapback would be relied upon as a normal timeframe for a market to recover. When we think of time horizons and clients' accounts and work through that, I just hope that clients don't develop a false sense of the importance of their horizons in thinking that's a normal type of a snapback, because it was really quick, and in my expectation I thought we would be dragging for a much longer period. Those are two things from 2020 that I've been still processing and trying to take away and working with clients on as it relates to the investment side.

Ben Smith:

Awesome. I think those were really good points too because, again, from just an overall behavioral piece I know that's a lot of what we work on and some getting that feedback from our clients and be able to demonstrate some of the value we have. Like to maybe just have maybe Chris go next and just share some of his thoughts of what he saw in 2020.

Chris Del Col:

Sure. Like Wes pointed out, it was a very interesting year. I think one of the dynamics just to talk about that seemed to come up a lot with clients was the lack of income available in the fixed income markets and with the level of rates where they are today and where they've been and where they're probably going to be for the next couple of years, the most common question I was getting from my clients is, "Where can I get some income in the portfolio?" Unfortunately, within the fixed income space there's really not much available even if you stretch out and take on some credit risk and go into high-yield. Compared to where it has been, high-yield at four and a half or five percent is historically low.

Chris Del Col:

The conversation we ended up having with a lot of clients is to say you have to probably consider looking at some portions of the equity market to get some of that yield." The overall dividend available for most stocks is high ones, but there are some subsets of the equity market where you can get two and a half percent type of dividend or distributions and you are taking on a little bit different risk. But that was a common theme of conversations had with clients over this past year.

Chris Del Col:

And like Wes points out, it's really important to manage people's expectations on rebounds in the market or return expectations going forward. Time horizons need to be probably stretched out, not shortened up, in terms of what people will expect in terms of returns on their portfolio. But current income was probably the biggest theme that I was having conversations with clients.

Ben Smith:

Yeah, that's really important. I want to also add too is, I know that's been a conversation about, again a rate of return that trying to make a financial plan work with is what return do we need to make a sustainable financial plan and looking at how much is in fixed income versus how much is in equities, that's going to be dictated by what we think going forward as well. We'll cover that in a few minutes, but I think that's a really good point Chris about what's happened in fixed income and what does that mean for how much exposure we should have in equities as well. Again, those two things are going to play well together.

Ben Smith:

I want to turn it over to A.J. and hear his thoughts about what he was seeing with his clients and what conversations he was having.

A.J. Walker:

Similar to Wes, I think the risk tolerance and time horizon questions come right to the forefront when we have the market drop like it did in March and then the sharp recovery. It gave us a good opportunity to talk to clients about why the asset allocation is structured the way that it is. What is the long-term thinking around that? What are the capital market assumptions going into that? That's where a lot of the discussions with my clients centered around that. And similar to Wes also, concern that it looks almost too easy. Yeah, we had a really massive market downturn, but as long as people didn't panic for even a few weeks it snapped right back. We've really tried to communicate to clients that that is not necessarily a normal behavioral pattern, that the market could drop and stay down for a while or have a much slower U-shaped recovery instead of V-shaped like it was.

A.J. Walker:

Tampering expectations coming into 2021 is going to be important. Clearly monetary policy and fiscal policy are driving the whole train right now and the market's always forward-looking and so the prospect of really large stimulus from Congress as well as super-low interest rates, very easy money policy from the Fed are going to definitely be a tailwind. But you can't guarantee that, you can't say that aren't going to be other disasters that occur. Who thought we were going to have a pandemic? Sitting in January I don't think anybody was going to predict the pandemic at the level that it has been in 2020. Good time to level set with clients and try to manage expectations around market growth.

Ben Smith:

I like it. Larry, from your side and your conversations you've been having with clients. Again, we all have different life stages of clients that we work with. But Larry, what have you been messaging to your client base and what have you been receiving for feedback there during 2020?

Larry Pelletier:

Well, we try to incorporate a number of the points that have already been addressed. The client base that I work with is a little bit different because they're a little bit older for the most part, and all of them remember 2008 vividly, like it was yesterday. When we were putting together portfolios with the help of Ben and Abby, one of the things that we did was engage in long, fairly lengthy conversations with each client about their time horizon and their risk tolerance and how comfortable were they in 2008. We're just talking about what happens if. We're all comfortable when the market's rocketing up, but we're not always comfortable when it's sliding down.

Larry Pelletier:

We had the opportunity to take a lot of information right on the front end, and Ben helped us incorporate that information into development portfolios that even though there was great turmoil happening around us in the investment world we had portfolios that were designed to meet client needs over a long term. We knew what their income needs were and we had set some monies aside. I have to say that the older clients in my book of business were really as comfortable as you could be. Doesn't mean they're perfectly comfortable, but they're as comfortable as you could be given the turmoil that was going on around us. And the fact that, as Wes has already pointed out, that we had such a tremendous bounce back, helped assuage the concerns of the clients but they also recognized that we could have another downturn that could be detrimental to the economy and to the portfolios.

Larry Pelletier:

But they're comfortable with what Guidance Point is doing for them, that's all number one. Number two, they were very comfortable with the amount and the level of communication and discussions that we have every single month to keep them current with what we're doing and how we're looking at the world and why we're doing what we're doing and why we're not doing a number of things quite frankly, that we choose not to do. I think communication has been the key and I know it's not exactly the answer that we're looking for with regard to specific investments but it's a methodology that we use, and more importantly I think a relationship. It's a wonderful life.

Ben Smith:

Nice way to wrap that together, Larry. Abby, I know you and myself and Curtis and A.J., we rap as a team a lot of times, especially with Larry. But Abby, from your end what are you saying to clients when you're having direct conversations there?

Abby Doody:

The biggest thing that we've been touching on is how much we rebalanced during 2020. There were large market swings so we were much more active within client accounts, rebalancing out of equities into bonds when market was going up and then vice versa when it was going down. I think that level of rebalancing really showed clients that we were really paying attention and on top of it for them and helped to provide some level of security knowing that we were looking out for them.

Ben Smith:

Yeah. I'll add to what Wes was saying as well, in terms of what was going on, I think from an equity perspective when you saw really all equities going down almost all at once, and obviously large cap had a significant drop, but you're seeing other categories, mid cap, small cap, international, down even further. The point about being diversified is things don't always move at the same time or at the same magnitude and I think that was something that really showed through here where maybe the large cap equities maybe was the first to rebound and rally here throughout spring into the summer, and what we finally saw in the fourth quarter here so far has been really these other equity categories really rallying.

Ben Smith:

That's something which is why having diversified portfolios ... Again, diversified portfolio is sometimes meaning always having to say you're sorry because not everything is going to be the best that it possibly could be of any investment market, but those categories that have been in portfolios and some of our client portfolios, they really showed up in ... And I think November, again on the ... I don't want to make a direct quote because I don't have a fact check on it, but I believe November has been one of the better months we've really ever seen in the equity markets. Again, I don't know what the number relative of the ranking there, but I know it's one of the top ones.

Ben Smith:

I think that would be a real surprise to people where ... We've even had a lot of conversations of, "Hey, the coronavirus came. We're really neck deep in it. We had an equity rally. It feels like we're in it still and maybe we got ahead of ourselves here a little bit and now it's going to be election time and maybe now is the time to get out or ..." Those sorts of conversations, I think, where people continue to be skittish and continue being fearful. We just talked about the value of continuing, making sure, "Hey, here's the bounds of where we are in our equity percentages and our allocations. Here's why it matches your needs and here's why it's important to stay with that."

Ben Smith:

I think those that we're working with, I think that really paid off here in the fourth quarter especially, because I know there's a lot of political fear on both sides. "If my party loses, what's going to happen?" I know that we're probably still going through that some. If we all polled each other on March 13th, is the equity markets going to be positive for the year or negative or neutral? I think positive to this extent would have been a little bit of a surprise to a lot of people of how much this has come back, especially where we still are relative to coronavirus. I know obviously we have had announcements of vaccines. We're right now in the moment. Right now we're starting to administer those vaccines so it's starting to happen. We have a lot of future-looking things that are going forward. I think all of our comments here are able to give a little robust look at what we saw in 2020.

Ben Smith:

I want to turn our eye forward because I know with our conversations, with all of our clients, they want to know what's next, right? And obviously what we prefaced was no one could have seen the coronavirus impact coming and what was happening. But as we sit today, it's also helpful of what are we looking at? What are we fearful of? What are we doing right now to maybe help protect some of our clients' portfolios and what are we thinking about? I want to turn that over to everybody here too and just get that as a point. Maybe Wes, could I have you start there in terms of where are we today and what are you thinking about going forward with your client portfolios?

Wes Del Col:

Sure. I think it's going to piggyback right off what you were saying, Ben, about the fourth quarter. I think one thing from an investment outlook standpoint when I think of 2021, and you just stated it, we do have vaccines on the horizon, right? That does hopefully represent light at the end of the tunnel, but we're still in a dark tunnel right now and so I think it's important not to be positioned for any one outcome. Like you were mentioning, the elections in November or sometimes people get something in their mind, "I need to get into cash. I think the market's going to go down now. I think it's going to go up potentially from here." 2020 taught us very difficult to predict those types of moves, so asset allocation, diversification. What Abby was talking about, prudent rebalancing at the appropriate times. Those are the things that I'm looking to for 2021.

Wes Del Col:

My best guess is that perhaps we see a bit of a reversal from last year where the economy towards the second half of the year begins to improve, but perhaps the stock market does take a little air out of the balloon. To be positioned across the board and have an allocation that you're comfortable with if that in fact happens I think is going to be the critical thing.

Wes Del Col:

And again, coming out of 2020 and having revisited this with all of our clients has been really important because some people in March and April we found out weren't comfortable with where they were. Now we've had the opportunity, we've adjusted those portfolios for them. Hopefully also from a behavioral standpoint had conversations with them so that we can get into 2021 and feel like we're prepared from how we're invested to handle any sort of outcome because it could go in a lot of different directions. But that's essentially what I see going forward is learning a lot from 2020.

Ben Smith:

Yeah. And I'll add, I think what we see with a lot of DIY investors a lot is that there's this mentality that we might tend to be binary with our investing is it's we need to be all equities, we need to be all cash, we need to be all bonds. I think there sometimes is overreaction, almost ... I'll use the analogy of almost like we're beginning to drive and we believe that the steering wheel needs to move a whole lot when we're beginning to drive and it's almost a similar type mentality when we invest.

Ben Smith:

I think when we're at the helm here and driving, they're very little movements in terms of the steering wheel is what we're making because to your point, there's lots of outcomes. We need to make sure that we're protecting where we need to but also being able to grow and meet those client goals and keeping them ... Essentially I'll use the golf analogy on the fairway or the driving analogy that we're keeping them between the proper lane. I think those are really important points.

Ben Smith:

Chris, I'd like to hear from you in terms of ... Obviously you have a really great permutation on the fixed income side. I'm getting a whole lot of questions on the fixed income side too of, "Hey, yields are extremely low and aren't interest rates then going to go up and now I'm going to get a negative return on my bonds? Isn't that the justification to go into equities?" I'd love to hear your thoughts about where we are today with fixed income. I know you gave a little bit earlier, but where are we thinking going forward in 2021?

Chris Del Col:

The way that the Fed has set up things on the interest rate front, we are at the lowest rates we've ever had and you would think that there's the potential for rising rates. And the fact that due to the pandemic and the printing of money that's going on there is the potential and discussion about possible inflation coming through. It not only is the printing of the money but the supply chain disruptions or coming back more to the United States with the supply chain has long-term implications of potential inflation and rates would rise in the event that there is that inflation.

Chris Del Col:

But you have to position yourselves today with the idea that there might be a rise in rates and fixed income portfolios will go down and inverse with rates rising will go down in price, so there is the potential for negative returns on longer duration, fixed income portfolios. Jamie Dimon said it the other day, "I wouldn't touch US treasuries with a 10-foot pole at the level of rates they are today." But we don't know and this is all the market's interpretation of future rates, it's not the Federal Reserve that is going to make rates rise, they're taking care of the front end of the yield curve. The lending rates that occur at the front end of the yield curve are pegged at zero and their plan is to keep them pegged at zero for a long time. But probably the prudent strategy is to shorten up duration in the fixed income portfolios because you're really not getting much yield to go out further beyond even five years.

Chris Del Col:

That's the landscape on things. We'll see as to what the future brings, but there's not a lot of income in the fixed income market right now and there is the potential for yes, rising rates, which would put potential negative returns on longer duration portfolios.

Ben Smith:

I think with some of the client conversations that we've been having has almost positioned this as the harvesting of crops for a few years is that you look at fixed income, especially intermediate to longer duration bond portfolios, you're seeing some really high single digit returns, income plus total return, because of how interest rates have come down. It almost feels like we've harvested the next two or three years of fixed income return in 2020 just because of how far interest rates came down. Would you agree with that Chris, about that line of thinking?

Chris Del Col:

Yeah. I think the returns that have contributed to portfolios have been a lot to do with the drop in rates of those longer duration portfolios. As you said, the return that we've had in 2020 has been because of the drop in rates out on the longer end and could reverse itself if they rise back up. It's a good way of putting it, we have harvested future returns of fixed income at this point. Going forward there is not a rosy picture for potential returns coming from those same portfolios.

Ben Smith:

Maybe just the point being is just being patient with your fixed income portfolio, right? Is, "Hey, maybe we still get a three percent return per year or four percent return per year over time, but might mean that we're at a zero negative for a couple of years or low yield for a couple of years and then averages back down. I think that's just little bit different than maybe fixed income investors have been trained as thinking about that coupon and every year getting my coupon and here's ... It's just pretty steady income as we go. It just is a little bit different of how we're experiencing a fixed income return nowadays. And again, from our side as advisors and giving advice to clients, I think that's something where we're trying to just make sure we're managing and just being on top of there for us.

Ben Smith:

I do want to ask another question here about really as we're getting hired right now is, I think this is a different arena for us where typically where someone says, "I'm interested in your service." We sit down, we meet each other, we get to hear their client story, almost their today story, what's happening and where things have been. But I think now it's a little bit different because we're not meeting with people a lot obviously in person, so when people are coming to us it's a different mode in which we're meeting them. There might be also some different needs or some different things that they're expressing, that's the reason why they're contacting us. I'd like to hear from people that are willing to share just what hearing from those new clients. What do they need? What are the services they're looking for? Why are they coming to us, is the question today. Again, I'll start with Wes, if you're okay with sharing that part of it.

Wes Del Col:

Yeah, sure. As I think through maybe the last five or six months and the people who have either been referred to me or have sought out our services, I think the one common theme, and this does go back to March and April and some of the things we discussed earlier, is I feel like they've commented that they weren't getting a lot of attention, that there wasn't a lot of interaction or outreach at the prior firms they were at. Not all of it coronavirus related, sometimes working with a larger bank or whatever it might be. There's more layers to go through, there's more people to interact with. I think these individuals all wanted a more personal relationship, someone that they ... One of the questions they're always asking is, "Am I dealing directly with you? Can I call you?" Absolutely. As opposed to it's not a call center, or if there's something in the back office, as we all know we deal with it ourselves, it's not so much call into the larger organization.

Wes Del Col:

The common theme that I've seen for this year is I think people obviously, and for good reasons, have been very concerned about their portfolios, about their investment management accounts, IRAs, and want to make sure that the individuals or the institutions that are helping them with those are on top of it, are communicating with them and assisting them. That's what I've seen.

Ben Smith:

Chris, just ask from your perspective, what are you seeing for, again, clients that you're onboarding in 2020 or what you're seeing from those responses?

Chris Del Col:

I would bring up one thing that Larry brought up. The way I think we've been able to win business relative to others is the relationships that we show. This past year, because of the volatility in the markets, I've really become closer with my clients because of the conversations that we've had throughout the process. Talking about investments, talking about life, talking about corona, and it's the personalized touch that I think shows through for Guidance Point. We're a smaller organization that can be right there for you during tough times and during good times. But it's really the personalized relationship that has helped and I think won us some new business that way, just realizing you're not going with a big organization.

Ben Smith:

Like it. Larry, from your perspective what have you seen in terms of maybe clients that are talking to you or people that are prospective clients that are talking to you and are thinking about engaging an advisor at this point.

Larry Pelletier:

I'm going to mimic what Chris has said. The biggest issue, at least here working with prospects in North Carolina, because as you all know that's where I'm stationed. But it's really personal relationship. It's communication or lack of communication that's really driving people to look around now, even though they've gone down and they've gone up with regard to their investments this year. I think there's a lot of nervous tension in people's hearts and minds because they have not had the type of conversations that they thought they would have. In fact, some of them would tell you they've had very few conversations with their current advisor. We're trying to build bridges and relationships, just as you are, with folks that we really don't know, but we're getting to know to show them who we are as people and really how much we care about them. I think that in the long run that'll play well for us.

Larry Pelletier:

Abby and I are trying to work on one right now in Maine and Ben, you're aware of it. It was a referral that we're putting together and the whole thing is being driven by the fact that she has no personal relationship with her current client. And while this is somebody I've known for a long time, up until a couple of months ago, through all these years everything was okay, the markets were okay, but this year has caused a tremendous amount of doubt in her mind. I'm comfortable and believe that we will have this account probably in the next couple of months, it just takes a little time. But we're building a friendship and I think that will be stronger for us, quite frankly, than our investment performance or anything else. It's just caring about people and having them know that.

Ben Smith:

Yeah. I'll add, Larry, I think there's two trends that I'm seeing a little bit more when Curtis and Abby and I are working together as well on things. One is we've actually been engaging with someone we engaged with on our podcast is a career coach. What we're hearing there is there's a lot of people that are looking at, "Hey, I don't really want to be in the industry I am right now due to coronavirus. I'm getting closer to retirement." Her question to those people was, "Can you afford to retire?" What's amazing about that question is they say, "Yeah, I have a financial advisor." And the career coach says, "But do you know the answer to that question?" She goes, "No, and I try to get my advisor to talk to me about that and they won't, they're only concerned about investments."

Ben Smith:

I think that's some of these core life questions, if we're not able to answer them that boy this can really be a roadblock to people's next step in life. We've gotten a few referrals about, "Hey, I know the team at Guidance Point really does a great job addressing those life challenges and helping you put a path in place to get to that point if you do want to retire or what showing you what that will look like and whether that is aligned with what you want it to look like," things of that nature.

Ben Smith:

Two, I'll say we've got a client that came in and they said, "I chose you because my former advisor was very much on one political party so every time I came in it was all about what's happening with that particular party, why that was going to be the thing that saves the day, and if it doesn't happen ..." It was a lot of extreme political conversation that made the client really uncomfortable. They said, "I was referred to you because I hear you guys are not like that, that you're really not playing one side or the other, you're not extremely liberal, extremely conservative." I think that was really big.

Ben Smith:

The third point I want to point out is just what we're doing today on Zoom is that look, they want to be able to get together and want to be able to meet and it might be the advisor was really encouraging them to come in person and they were not comfortable with that or B, they really didn't have a technological capability that they wanted to meet in a way and see each other that wasn't a phone call and the ability to the advisor to adapt to a Zoom or a video conference was a really big deal.

Ben Smith:

That we're doing things like this has really emphasized that to our client base, our prospects, and our centers of influence that refer to us and I think that's been the three reasons why we've been seeing some more business there is just being adaptable and being able to meet people where they want to be met and be comfortable, so I'll just leave that there. Any final thoughts there on that point?

Wes Del Col:

I think that was well said. No, that was good.

Ben Smith:

Awesome. All right, well I'll wrap up today's round table. I appreciate everybody tuning in and listening to our messages today. Again, the clients that we work with, we're really grateful, really appreciative that we've been chosen to be on this journey with you. But for those that are looking for our services we want to be able to showcase some of what we're doing and what makes us a little bit different and where we're positioned here obviously in 2020 but also going forward into future years. Appreciate everybody tuning in. We'll definitely do another one of these in the near future, but until then catch you later.