Transcript

Ben Smith:

Welcome everybody to The Retirement Success in Maine Podcast. My name is Ben Smith. I am joined by my colleagues, Abby Doody and Curtis Worcester, the Peggy Olson and Don Draper to my Roger Sterling. How are you guys doing today?

Curtis Worcester:

Good.

Abby Doody:

Good Ben, how are you?

Ben Smith:

I’m great. Of course always talking about retirement and talking about aging and talking about lots of the kind of necessary stuff is what we've been doing the theme on lately. And we've been talking about kind of guests and what we want to do and where we want to go. And the topic that we people just keep giving this feedback on is travel. Like you just spent one episode on travel and that's the stuff that people are always looking forward to. And we could just go forever on that topic. So really that's kind of this whole like you're starting to think about retirement or what you want to do in retirement.

Ben Smith:

And really one of those things that maybe your spouse, state that you want to do is travel more. But I think a lot of people get stuck on, well, what do you want to see, right? What do you want to see? What do you want to do, especially if you and your spouse have different tastes and interests, right? It's like, well, how do we kind of come together where I want to do this, but you want to do that. And we're kind of going back and forth. So how do we go about creating this kind of list of things like maybe a WanderList of things that we want to do in places we want to visit? So again, kind of this, the conflict there between the two maybe a spouse or just kind of coming up with it.

Ben Smith:

So in the course we hear from our clients that they're interested in certain themes like, "Hey, we're foodies. And we like going and trying all these different foods," or, "We're sports fans." I want to go experience different sports or there's history and you know, but how do we go building trips on themes. Because I can kind of see where it gets really overwhelming. It gets really just kind of hard to kind of put something cohesive together and I could see where I would get stuck, I know, but also our clients that are getting stuck there too. So in episode three, we dove really deep into traveling well in retirement and really the challenges as we age.

Ben Smith:

So we kind of covered that part about this whole spectrum of maybe pre-retirement to retirement to then aging and retirement and how to maybe overcome some of those challenges that we can have or how do we go with our family, things like that. But in this episode, we really wanted to explore putting a solid travel plan in place. So our next guest today is a travel expert. She holds a bachelor degree in German and International Relations with a Master's degree in Tourism Administration. So, she's planned hundreds of trips for our clients at Luxury Travel Works and she doesn't understand why Mainers drink Moxie. So let's welcome back to The Retirement Success and Maine Podcast Keri Forbringer here. Keri, welcome to the show.

Keri Forbringer:

Thank you for having me. Yes, no offense Moxie.

Ben Smith:

Yeah, I don't get it myself is... I don't know why its-

Keri Forbringer:

That makes me feel a little better.

Ben Smith:

It's pretty disgusting in my opinion, but we all have our well ever tastes. So, but thanks for coming on. Because I know obviously you were one of our earlier shows you were episode three and we were just kind of getting our rhythm in place and trying to figure this out. And we're all very nervous about what we're doing and what we're saying and all that. So obviously now, you're our soul repeat guests that we've had.

Curtis Worcester:

The only one.

Ben Smith:

Awesome. So thank you for that. But also is this idea of, a travel is something really important to people and what we don't want to do is just free people, what we already did. But we think there's lots of things that we could explore even deeper. But for those that maybe didn't hear your show in episode three. Again, if you haven't, go take a listen. But could you just give folks a little bit of your background in terms of your history and maybe your kind of journey to the state of Maine.

Keri Forbringer:

Sure. Yeah. So, has been rightfully called out. I am from a way. I'm from St. Louis, Missouri. That's where I grew up, ended up in Maine because of college, went to Bowdoin, met my husband there. We moved away for a little while and then moved back. It's kind of called to us. So it's a different world. Brunswick and Bangor are different worlds. I love it here where we're in it for the long haul. So travel, getting into travel was kind of an accident. I knew I wanted cross-cultural relations. We had an exchange student when I was 16. I think I did one of those things that many teenagers do where they're like, "Wow, the world is big but small at the same time, how cool, everyone should realize this." So that was kind of like the groundwork for my travel career, moved on thinking that I was going to be a diplomat.

Keri Forbringer:

That's actually why it went to Bowdoin. They have a great government department, diplomacy. It turns out, has a lot more politics in it than I really want to be a part of. And in many ways, travel kind of is diplomacy for everybody. So you get to know cultures and different people and learn about all kinds of different things and make those connections in a way that I think is really, really meaningful.

Ben Smith:

And recently we had an episode with International Living Magazine. Dan Prescher was one of the senior editors there and one of the things he said was this whole concept of that travel, but also experiencing the world makes you more of a world citizen. It makes you experience more things, maybe opens a little bit more of your horizons and broadens your kind of your lens, which I think is really important, especially in today's day and age where I think we can get very... Maybe focused either on maybe US politics has been the big thing here, or maybe it's just the other things that just in our world in our circle can sometimes be small. But you can still live anywhere, be anywhere and that's what we love about Maine. It's a really beautiful place to be and to live.

Ben Smith:

But there's times where we got to go experience new things and we want to see new things. And I think that's where, again, that's why I like this whole thread of it's always fun to go away and experience things, but then you're like, you know what, it's time to come back. And Maine kind of has that nice little gravity to it, especially lots of different pockets around the state is kind of fun for that. So I know that's what you had said in the previous episode, Gary was something along those lines.

Keri Forbringer:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's great. I mean, it's a great place to live. We're pretty spoiled. It's a place that a lot of people want to come to. It's like a huge destination over the summer where people felt they wanted to stay relatively local. So many out of staters here, which is awesome. And we're super lucky, but I think anywhere you travel you bring something back with you. It's totally cliche, but totally true. I mean, there's a reason for it. It really does. It enriches you and kind of informs your opinions about everything and I think it's worth it.

Ben Smith:

Yeah. And what I like about that is, there's also a through thread that's happening to of as we're maybe even first-generation experience in travel. Because I know there's kind of multi-generations that can kind of go through this, but to see almost as first-generation travel experiences with your second generation or third generation. And you kind of get these kind of shared cultural experiences together, which is, I think the good part about family is that you're doing things together. You all maybe have your own expertise or maybe your own kind of a lens of how you view the world, but you also start getting some shared experiences and shared lenses as you do that as well. So kind of this nice kind of thing happening of not just maybe a spouse, but also either generations before or generations after you kind of doing those things together is kind of a cool little thing too.

Keri Forbringer:

Yeah, yeah. Totally.

Ben Smith:

Well, not to... I see we've sold people into travel at this point. And I know there is this whole alright cool, "I want to go travel. I want to go do stuff." Where do I start? And that's I think the episode today is... All right. We want to dream and create our WanderList. And I know that was a concept I'd never heard before Keri, before you brought that up in our episode on episode three was this concept of a WanderList. And so I want to ask you about that just to build a foundation for the show here. Can you talk to us about the concept of what is a WanderList? And then let's kind of just get into that definition of... Because again, we might all define things differently. What is a WanderList? How was it used, how to use it?

Keri Forbringer:

Sure. So WanderList is kind of a term that came across my radar from the consortium that I work under, which is called Virtuous. It's a luxury travel consortium. We buy into it, travel advisors will buy into it. And they help us negotiate deals with some of the hotels and destinations and all that kind of stuff so we can get extra parks and all that stuff. So, they are currently beta testing, a product called WanderList. That is actually a software where you can put together a list in a really cool interactive way. But I think it's a really great term in contrast to a bucket list because a bucket list sounds really final to me, whereas a WanderList sounds super expansive and something, I mean, it sounds like it's a... I don't know, it sounds like it's something that's alive. Like you can keep adding to it and expanding on it. I really like it, so.

Ben Smith:

Yeah. Because I know that was our title of the third episode was a kind of the bucket list idea. I know that was a hot trend, for a while is everyone kind of had their whole bucket list and let's make the list, but you're all kind of right as like once you kind of go, "Hey, at 10 things I want to do before I die." And you cross off like nine of them, does that mean I should die now or we're like, it's done. That's not good. It's over. So again, I like that definition here of, hey, here's something that continues to build, expand, change in your wandering was sometimes you just, by going to some place new, maybe you explore someplace new off of that. So, it’s kind of-

Ben Smith:

Cool.

Keri Forbringer:

I always love a good plan and hunting off of wonder less, which is two or wander less, which is to go exploring and wanting to go exploring. I just liked that a lot.

Ben Smith:

Yeah.

Keri Forbringer:

Yeah.

Abby Doody:

So when people are going through building a list, I think there's a tendency to just say yes to wherever. To go everywhere. And that's not really that helpful and kind of narrowing down where you want to go. So what's your best advice to start building one of those lists that you and whoever you're traveling with can agree on. And also what are the best ways to research some of those travel themes like food, history, sports, stuff like that?

Keri Forbringer:

Sure. I think this is true for so many people that you have a different desire to see places then your spouse or whoever your travel companion is your parents, your children, whoever, and that's totally normal and natural. I think the best place to start is honestly to make it for yourself. So you separate from whoever your travel companion is, come up with, here are the things that drive me to want to go places to, you know, this is something that I absolutely have to see and it could be totally different. So I don't know my husband and I have really different travel tastes. I'm kind of, if you can't tell very much the like, yes, go everywhere, check, like go here, go there. I want to see absolutely everything and he's like, "Take it or leave it." Okay.

Keri Forbringer:

There are a few things that really get him going. So having him create a list and me create a list separately and then cross comparing, I think does a lot of good. We probably would not have landed on half the places that we've gone to, had we not done some version of that even kind of unofficially,

Ben Smith:

For example, though, can you dive into that a little bit deeper? Because I guess my question here is, so if you're building this idea of a WanderList and were saying, hey, it might... Because I guess what I'm coming at this with, it might not just be a list of places. It might be a list of things I want to do or experiences I want to have. And by putting those two things together, I was like, well, I really like Thai food and I really, and you really want to see something in Thailand. So here's something, Oh jeez. I can really experience the food there as you're experiencing some of the Thai culture or something, right?

Keri Forbringer:

Yep. Yeah. So I think my way of traveling tends to be experiential. I tend to think of places in terms of experiences and it's you know, maybe there are landscapes or landmarks. I want to see the Coliseum. I want to do whatever. I want to eat Thai food in Thailand, something like that. But those are the kinds of things that go on my list rather than just like Thailand, Japan. So, and that makes it a little bit easier because there are places where you can experience a lot of those things. Maybe you want to go skiing in the Alps with the Alps across a bunch of different countries. So, don't pigeonhole yourself to, it’s got to be Switzerland, because maybe Austria is a better fit for you. There are a lot of ways to kind of come at this. So, yeah I think.

Ben Smith:

Because I essentially, I could see where you could go. Here's 10 of the things I really want to do. And say, let's use that as example, say skiing in the Alps. So, all right. Has to be then probably winter time or closer to winter time where snow is readily being made or available. But also, hey, I'm really into chocolate. So maybe chocolate's a thing that I really like to, wouldn't it be cool to go to Switzerland and experience the chocolate in Switzerland while we ski in the Alps or... So I could see where you could go, hey, here's eight or nine things of, here's my likes. And that would also lead us to maybe going to Switzerland versus going-

Ben Smith:

Yeah. I have to go to like these ones, I'm I have to go to the Coliseum and that's the only thing I want to do. Now I'm not flexible with that goal because it's only the Coliseum or bust.

Keri Forbringer:

Right. And maybe it's Coliseum or bust, maybe you have listened to a thousand podcasts, watch gladiator over and over. You really want to see, how the inner workings of the coliseum are. And that's cool too, but put that on your list and cross compare. Maybe it's not the first trip that you do. Maybe the first trip is something else where you both discovered that you do really like Thai food and like, hey, our timing aligns. We have January instead of September to go. It's going to be better weather in Thailand, then maybe we'll go. And I think you're right Ben, some of these things really do lead into a particular time of year or maybe it's an event and experience. And I know you're really into baseball. It's got to be a certain time of year. You can't go watch the All-Star Game in the middle of whatever February. That's just not going to work.

Ben Smith:

Yeah. Because I guess that's where I like to just expand a little bit more there Keri is so when it comes to themes it's like, hey, here's a theme. And I'm trying to explore it, like pick up myself a baseball. It's like, hey, I want to go experience baseball. And I could see where if I'm going to retire or I am in retirement is like, I've spent my whole life watching the Red Sox. And what I could do is I could just say, "Hey, want to go experience the Red Sox." And one way to do is just hang out at Fenway Park for a month.

Keri Forbringer:

Absolutely.

Ben Smith:

That's one way to do it. But in terms of budget wise, obviously staying in Boston at 5:50 p.m. for a month is probably pretty expensive. And then I get to eat there. And so, there's different ways to do that. What may, be a better way to do that is to go, hey, my spouse also, she's really into Chicago. She thinks Chicago is pretty cool. And then she's only wanting to see Milwaukee. Well, maybe I like baseball. She likes these different cities or hasn't experienced them. Maybe we're doing the road trip with a team and they're hitting like these three or four different areas. And we can watch some of the baseball at night while we do some of these themes during the day.

Keri Forbringer:

Exactly. Yeah. And that's a really great way to kind of combine your WanderList and check everybody's boxes. I mean, there's certainly trips that I have planned for other people and for myself that have been very much one sided. And in that case, you really have to alternate if we're talking about spouses or if we're talking about families, I think that's important too. Everybody wants to be happy. You want to keep wanting to travel, but it is awesome when you can align two people's or multiple people's interests.

Ben Smith:

I think that's exactly what we're trying to go. Is like, okay, I have this list, you have that list. And then also we put those things together and boom, it's magical because you're having a time of your life. I'm at the top of my life and we're not kind of sacrificing your happiness for mine or vice versa.

Keri Forbringer:

Right. Exactly. Yep.

Curtis Worcester:

Keri, I want to keep going on this idea of kind of building this travel planner or the travel list. What are some blanket sort of mistakes that you see people make or you could see people make when they're trying to, you know, I know we kind of talked around it at this point is, you've talked about things to do. Are there some big things not to do when you're thinking about this list? And, for example, if I say I've been to Chicago a handful of times and I just love it and I probably love it because I've been there so much, is there something wrong with using past trips as the core of making my new list? Or should I branch out or-

Keri Forbringer:

Never.

Curtis Worcester:

No. Okay.

Keri Forbringer:

Never, never. I mean, I think one of the questions that I tend to ask people when we're planning a trip together is, what have you liked? What have you done before? What have you enjoyed about that trip? What was it that really made it stand out to you? And maybe the reason you love Chicago is because you love breweries. Well, there's breweries in a lot of different places, we can send you or maybe you love cities, maybe never been in New York, but that's another city that you could explore or something. So we can take pieces of it and build onto it. I think there's also no problem. I mean, let me backtrack.

Keri Forbringer:

I think personally, I think that there's no problem with adding some more back to your list again and again. I think that's where your travel companions come in and feel like, oh my God, I'm so tired of going to Chicago. I want to go somewhere else." You have to find some of those common themes. Okay. So what is it that draws you there? Is it comfort, because you've been there before? Is there something that we can find that feels that comfortable to you somewhere else? That's a little bit different that you guys can both agree on. So yeah, no problem with it generally.

Ben Smith:

So I think that's the point here is, is one thing to build a list. Is to go here's all the lists and all the things I want to do and where I want to go. And we just kind of talked about blending those things together. Sometimes you're going to see themes where, hey, there's a place where we can encapsulate a lot of these places, these things together, experiences, food, culture, whatever that might be, maybe even budget, but things like that we can put together and go, here's a really great trip here. Now, one question, we ask people in our clients as we sit back and because again, a lot of them they're dreaming forward in their retirement and saying, hey, what do I want to do?

Ben Smith:

And you go, well, jeez, maybe I have 10, 20 or 30 years of my retirement. And it seems very broad and big and seems very overwhelming, is I could do so many things that I don't know what to do. So we kind of can flip that on its head sometimes and say, "Hey, if you're a hundred years old, you're looking back in your life, what would I regret not doing?" Or, "Where would I regret not going?" So because the idea what we're trying to get to is, how do I put prioritization into the list? Because it's like, hey, right now at a hundred years old, I really wish I could have gone to the brewery tour in Milwaukee and seeing all that, that would be really cool to do. So how do you kind of get people there because we're trying to move people. Is go broad, get a little list going, put some ideas down, now prioritization, how do you do that?

Keri Forbringer:

So I think this kind of gets back to Curtis's question, which I completely neglected to answer some of the mistakes that people make when they're putting in their list. One of the big problems is that people kind of think that it's a static list and it's not today, maybe you're really, really into gladiator. You've watched it a thousand times. You have always watched it a thousand times. Rome is at the top of your list, but that's not practical. I can't go to Rome tomorrow, but maybe there's something else that I'm really into that I could go to tomorrow. So some of the practical aspects fall come into play with prioritization. And I think people really do get stuck on their ideas of... Well it's Rome or bust. And I don't think that's really... Maybe from a practical perspective, like you only got the money saved up to go on one epic trip, make it count, but don't think that you're going to do it tomorrow, plan ahead that kind of stuff.

Keri Forbringer:

I think prioritization is really hard and this is kind of, I think the cool thing about having a WanderList, having it not be static, have it be kind of flexible and whatever, because you can kind of look at it and say, "Oh yeah, this feeds into this. I really liked this." Maybe we'll do these two destinations back to back or whatever I think it helps. And then you can look and plan for the future because maybe Chicago's on your short-term list, Rome is on your long-term list. So does that kind of answer your question.

Ben Smith:

I does, yeah.

Abby Doody:

So we find that if we don't assign due dates to things, they just don't happen. And so we're talking about all these things and priorities and lists. How do you make sure that you go to places by a certain date and is that a wise thing to do to set time limits on some of these?

Keri Forbringer:

I think sometimes it's a wise thing to do. I have not done this before, as Ben suggested this in an email to maybe ask this question to me. Wow. Due dates. Yes. That sounds awesome.

Ben Smith:

You just outed me, how type A, I am. Like, yeah. He's got priorities everything by due date.

Keri Forbringer:

Yeah. I mean, I think to due date sounds like a really scary thing. But it is kind of a good idea where people give themselves a due date and I never want to push something on you and say by 2022, you have to have gone to these places or you're a total failure. That's not how travel works. That's not how things change, whatever. But I think that having people really think about it in terms of the due date like, okay, so you've got in the next two years, are there things that you really want to accomplish? And let's make those happen. Like what's holding you back? What are the steps that we need to take to get you there? Is it giving you a layout of what a trip could look like? So you can start visualizing it and you can start thinking about it a long time in advance.

Keri Forbringer:

You have to understand when I do something like this, I make sure that my clients very much understand that the prices are not fixed. They might get their heart set on going somewhere at some point. And then that place is sold out. And you can't make that happen, but especially if we're doing it two years in advance, so unless you're booking it's not fixed. However, it gives you a pretty good framework of like these are the prices. These are the things that I can get excited about. Oh, if I'm going to go take this tour, one of the things I really want to do is start brushing up on my French or doing something, taking the steps that get you excited because really like part of the joy of travel is the anticipation, I think. Yes.

Ben Smith:

Well, Keri from my end too, there's a level of coaching that happens here when we're working with probably a common client at some points here, is that we're kind of looking at this, they're going, going forward. It's almost an audit of time. As they say, here's the time. Here's how I'd like to spend that time visiting family or doing certain activities or volunteering or whatever it might be. And sometimes they're state of golden that time audit is, I want to travel so much. As I want to travel, I want to go a week every six months to somewhere new I've never been or it's once a year I'm going to go experience something a little bit different. Is to kind of go by putting those as goals and saying, here's where I want to spend my time.

Ben Smith:

Then that filters into, okay, in 2021 I want to go do something along those ones. And to your point is, hey, if that doesn't happen, doesn't mean you're a failure? But I've kind of put into a structure of, hey, I can be adaptable with it but by putting this in place you avoid what you kind of mentioned in the episode three with... By the way, in 2022, our 40th anniversary's coming up, but me and my spouse argue about the 40th anniversary, who we want there, how you want to celebrate it, where you want to go, what the cake looks like, whatever the thing is. And because we argue so much about it, like it’s now our 42nd anniversary and we've not celebrated our 40th anniversary yet, which I could see totally happening on the travel end.

Keri Forbringer:

That's a lot.

Ben Smith:

Is you just kind of get to this point in a recent episode with AmyK Hutchens about communication. A lot of this kind of coaching stuff is around kind of the couple or the people that are trying to do things together, getting them to the compromise and saying things to allow adaptability, flexibility, without creating harsh feelings.

Keri Forbringer:

Right. Right. I think that's where somebody like me comes in very useful because I can be a mediator. I'm always a proponent of bringing in an expert on anything. There are things that I think it's totally great to DIY and certainly more power to you. I'm never going to be the person who builds a house with my two hands. That's just not going to happen. I am going to bring somebody in, who's going to be an expert because I don't want my house to fall down.

Ben Smith:

You do, yeah.

Keri Forbringer:

Yup. Yup. Or discover that whatever. So with somebody who is an expert, who's thinking about travel all the time. They can tell you what's realistic. They can help you narrow it down and they can mediate between family members or whatever. I think I'm not sure if we talked about this one on the first podcasts, but I had a family, a multi-generational family it was a 60th birthday trip. And they brought me in because they couldn't communicate with each other effectively. That's basically the only, not the only reason, but that was the thing that ultimately drove them to me, which we need, mom's not going to be happy if this doesn't happen and dad's not going to be happy if this isn't happening and it's his birthday.

Keri Forbringer:

So we have to make sure that he's happy, but how do we make everything work? And is it possible? And I can come in, they're going to listen to me much more than they're going to listen to their kid potentially say yeah, that's not really realistic. You can't go to Florence and Venice in the same day and really experienced both of them. You have to have a little bit of time and whatever. And if they get mad at me, that's whatever, it's not relationship ending. It is about communication.

Curtis Worcester:

So, Keri, Ben mentioned this earlier in the episode we recently had on gentleman Dan Prescher, who is a senior editor at International Living Magazine. And our kind of conversation with him was all about taking advantage of certain benefits of living in different countries throughout retirement. And a piece of that conversation was figuring out where you want to live, if you're going to live abroad. And I want to rotate this to you now is, so a piece that he emphasized was really going and trying out, sampling, living in these places. But you know, for me, when I think about that it's, I'm not going to go to Italy for a month.

Curtis Worcester:

So and when I think about, oh, I'm going to go see if I want to live in Italy. His point was, if you're there for a week, you're not going to know what it's like to live in Italy. You're going to know what it's like to visit. So do you have advice for someone who wants to say, "I want to go live in Italy." How would I go about planning a trip that doesn't feel like a trip at the end of it, but it gives me a sample of what it's like to really live there.

Keri Forbringer:

I mean, it's really all travelers individual. So I think it would have to be a thing that feels really comfortable to you going for a full month is obviously a really good way to kind of get your feet wet and see what it feels like to live there, really understand the complexities of like, hey, so this is what's in the supermarket. Here's what I can find, how I can cook whatever, here's what these things are called. I mean, there is nothing quite like getting thrown in like that. It shouldn't be overwhelming, but it should be something... I think it's, I don't know. It's a cool thing to do. If you've never been to Italy, I'm not sure that I'm going to say go for a month.

Keri Forbringer:

Maybe you're the kind of person for whom that works. And that's awesome. And that's a conversation that we would have about that. But if you've never ever been, start with the week draft. Is it, this region of Italy that really calls to me or this other region of Italy, and then we can talk about further down the road or whatever, because you don't want to get there and discover that you hate it.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah. It's true. I see your point.

Keri Forbringer:

And you haven't learnt that.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah. I see your point.

Keri Forbringer:

Yeah. Yeah. But I think it is cool. So this is something that I did. I lived abroad. I lived in Salzburg, Austria for a couple of years, worked there, taught there and having visited before, it doesn't compare it. There are the things that like, oh my God, I have to make sure that I always have my bus ticket with me or something like little things that you don't think about when you're a tourist. It's worth it to go for that extended period of time.

Ben Smith:

Like what you're saying there, Keri is this whole kind of crawl, walk, run. Is this whole, hey, try it first, see if that's a region and where you want to be. Then maybe extend that a little bit longer get a little more lay of the land. Because again, you're not going to Uber everywhere. Like if you were staying there for a month. We're on vacation, you're definitely going to go. Yeah. I only got a week. I got to maximize every moment I have. So I really need to really compress everywhere I can do to make sure I'm experiencing the most again, where on a longer trip I might need to be again, I do want to try out the transportation. I might need to go interview people in the medical system. I might need to go... My kids might be coming with me, might need to go interview the educational system, but I need to get there. And how do I get there? And that might be different answers based on how the length of the stay is going to work.

Keri Forbringer:

Right. Right. I mean, I like the way that you said it crawl, walk, run is definitely a great way to kind of plan any kind of a trip, especially if you're thinking about a really long-term one. We had several clients who have done this, where they've gone on a cruise or something, and they've spent a day, a half a day in a destination. They're like, man, I really want to go back and see it more. And then you build on that. Yeah, there are tons of things to consider. As a travel advisor, I'm thinking about this more from a short-term perspective than a really long-term perspective. So I'm probably not the right person to ask, but if you're planning a month long trip, that's something that obviously is in my wheelhouse planning on years long trip. That's not a trip anyway, so.

Ben Smith:

And you got visas and because it's not really travel at that point. It's really more of a temporary stay. And now you've entered a whole another realm of international issues if you're abroad, especially. So Keri, I want to ask another question here is, again, I think there's always a lot of, we experienced an art client meetings that we have couples that might come in and let's be sensitive with this. They might not be the best at communicating with each other. Let's just put it that way. Is that, maybe there's this things that we've kind of gotten at our rhythms. We'd never really expressed to each other about goals or settings or things. So, we go through the WanderList idea. We go, hey, you do your list. I'll do my list.

Ben Smith:

And the hope is, hey, we've been together for enough period of time that our WanderList should have like, I'm doing the Venn diagram with my hands here. It should have overlap. It really should have something there that we can find commonality. We can find themes that agree. But what happens? You got your Venn diagram and there's two circles are not lining up. They are not there. What would you do to help somebody in that situation? Help find resolution that they're both happy with, but kind of gets them to the... Again, the overarching stated goal of, I want to travel. But again, the themes, experiences, places totally different.

Keri Forbringer:

Yep. I mean, I think we touched on this a little bit earlier. There's often an element of compromise trips. And in this scenario, we're probably talking about a couple rather than a full family or whatever. I'm always going to advocate for you to, if there is something that your spouse will never ever be interested in, go on a girl's trip, go on a guy's trip. Find someone else to go with you, go by yourself. Who says that it's got to be your spouse. If your spouse has a problem with that, then that's another story. And we have to start talking about, well, where can we find the commonalities? But I do. I have several clients who they don't travel with their spouses. They travel with their friends. They all go on a cruise with their friends because cruising is absolutely not their spouse's cup of tea. And I don't want people to write that off. If the goal is to travel, I think you're probably going to find a way to do it.

Ben Smith:

I could see where the natural thing to say would be to my spouses, okay, rock paper, scissors, who goes first, I'm going to choose mine. And then you got to go with me, be miserable while I do it, then you do your thing and I'll be miserable while you do it. So we're going to rain on each other's parade and make something really experiential awesome lesson. I don't think Keri would do that. But you know what I mean. That's something where I could see where that would be a natural compromise. That would not be good.

Keri Forbringer:

Yeah. Yeah. I think there are different ways to compromise and a lot of trips. I think it's been really rare in my experience that people have completely separate Venn diagrams. There's usually something that people like within the different destinations within, whatever. Maybe my thing is, I don't feel like I've been on vacation if I don't have a day where I go to the spa and sit and do absolutely nothing. Read a book maybe, so maybe work that into your trip. And if your spouse feels like that's wasting time or your travel companion or whatever feels like that's wasting time. We were in Paris for five days and you're spent a whole day just sitting there doing nothing. Well, maybe they can go do their own separate thing. Communication is definitely key and I know it's easier said than done sometimes.

Keri Forbringer:

Please don't tell my husband, actually, I think he's in on this. So this might not be a secret, but we have different travel styles in a lot of ways I love to wander, plunk me down in the middle of a city somewhere, give me a map, like a physical map, maybe on my phone something like that. And a couple of landmarks and I'm just going to be the happiest person just walking around. And I love to have a day like that. He needs destinations. So I will plan. I'll take out the map and I'll plan destination A and destination B is far away from each other as possible so that I can do my wander thing in between and then get to the other side. And he's like, yes, we've reached our destination. We're going to go to this museum or do whatever.

Curtis Worcester:

That great.

Keri Forbringer:

So you can find ways to make your travel styles compatible. If you can't, once again, I'm going to say, go on your girl's trip, go on your guys trip. Bring somebody else with you.

Ben Smith:

And I'll add one, one piece of that too. Just my own experience is that, I think with kind of my relationship with my wife, with Kara is I've kind of gotten to the point where I was way too passive. And saying what I wanted in terms of vacations, is I would just go whatever you want, just like as long as you're happy, I'm happy. That's cool. Let's do it. Then I get there and I'm like, well, I would still feel a sense of disappointment of, hey, well, that would be kind of cool. But I didn't really... Maybe I wasn't confident enough to say it or whatever, which is ridiculous. I totally should, could and would have, but now kind of realizing that it's like I would always be on these places and go. This is ultimately what I want to do, but I didn't express it. And that was my own fault for not expressing that.

Ben Smith:

So now when we're planning out vacations together as going, no, it's really important to me that, I want to do have this type of meal or I want to go have that carve-out that you just said. As I want that we just travel three hours on a plane. I want some time to myself to just decompress after the plane, then I'll be ready to go. But I need to be active enough as a participant to say that versus expecting somebody to read that of my mind and then build it into the trip, where I never even told them? So again, my own fault. But I've noticed that in my own pattern with my relationship that I have to be a better participant and I've been happier in those vacations because of that.

Keri Forbringer:

I feel like this is just generally very good marriage advice to advocate for the things that you need and make some compromises where you can and then places that you can't compromise, stand your ground, say out loud, this is absolutely the thing that's going to make my vacation worth it. And if I don't do this thing, if I don't see sheep, when I'm in Ireland, I haven't been to Ireland. You know, like-

Curtis Worcester:

I haven't had a pint of Guinness.

Keri Forbringer:

Right.

Ben Smith:

And my spouse, isn't a drinker. And wouldn't ever think to go to Guinness or Jameson's or whatever. But yeah. So, we're going to title this dreaming and creating your WanderList questions AKA good marital advice.

Curtis Worcester:

That's right. It's good.

Keri Forbringer:

It is. This is my job. Well, I know you would not be surprised because you also do advising, but there is so much communication, interrelationship communication in my career, so.

Ben Smith:

Yeah. And again, you're the expert and we're trying to create a safe place. As you create a safe place for them to express it. And now it's out in the open and then people look at each other like, well, we never talked about this themselves, but they've never been asked the question. They've never framed it that way. They've never really thought about it in the terms that you're expressing. And as you're brainstorming it, you want that to be open and safe and then things are coming out. That means we're doing our job well, which I kind of see it as, so that's what kind of gets us excited while we're kind of having those meetings. You're seeing those things come out and people are going well, you've never told me that. Well, again that's because you've never had this experience with somebody like us and these conversations.

Keri Forbringer:

Right, right. Yep. It's communication is everything.

Abby Doody:

So we're going to kind of shift gears a little bit. So as Ben alluded to the title is dreaming of our WanderList and perhaps our dreams have bigger thoughts and eyes than our budget does. So how do you help people match where they want to go with a realistic budget? Because I can imagine this is where a lot of stress comes from when planning.

Keri Forbringer:

Yes. That is a great question. I mean, I think until you've really tried to plan something we've been somewhere similar, you might have really unrealistic expectations of how much something costs. So bringing someone in who does look at these numbers frequently is really helpful, but sometimes it's also really helpful to go in kind of on your own and think, okay, realistically, if I have X amount of dollars to spend on vacation total, I need to think of it in terms of the transportation to get there, the lodging, the activities when I'm there. And some of those things overlap, maybe you have an all-inclusive hotel stay or a cruise where the transportation and the food and the lodging is all one, but it is kind of nice to break it all down to really be realistic.

Keri Forbringer:

Because if you think I have $5,000 to go to Japan from Maine, it's going to cost me how many thousands of dollars to actually get there. How much money do I have on the ground? Is that really enough to make my dream trip happen? The answer might be no, maybe your dream trip includes the most expensive night of sushi of your entire life and a five-star hotel and a Japanese tea ceremony with like, I don't know, all kinds of extras and you know N, N, N. That's probably not going to be enough. So again, this comes back to kind of the flexibility is that the only place, if you have this amount of money, is that the only place that you can go, maybe it's not a next year thing. Maybe it's the year after kind of thing. And you continue to save to make sure that that trip can happen the way that you wanted to.

Ben Smith:

Or maybe you're adjusting that goal or expectation. As we try and talk about is, maybe in their budget they're thinking about every six months or every year we do a trip. Okay. Well, if that's the case, then, would that dream trip to Japan be better than to kind of maybe middle WanderList destinations for you because that's your number one. And that's both of your number ones. So maybe what we do is combine the budget of two trips of that standard goal to create the one trip. And so it means, it's like maybe what we're doing is compressing 10 years of travel. Maybe you're doing that and going, hey, maybe every year, instead of doing 10 trips, maybe we're doing five really great trips for five years.

Ben Smith:

And then really going down your list or maybe just doing different types of trips after years six to 10. So again, having a little more long-term perspective is where we try to go and the financial plan is go, hey, what I hear you say is this, and this is what we built, but now what I hear you expresses is this, how do we find a way to make that happen? Which is, I guess, one of the biggest points of having a financial advisor and a good financial planner is to go, I expressed you this path, show me financially how to get that path working.

Keri Forbringer:

Right, right. Yep. In the travel world, what happens really... I mean, it's so common where people's eyes are bigger than their stomachs when it comes to what they can achieve on a 10 day trip or something like that. And that's the prioritization where I will come in and kind of coach people through what are the things that absolutely are make or break for your trip? Can we get those into your budget? If we can't, then maybe we push this off. Like you said, Ben combined two years travel budgets make the big epic dream trip. Or often what ends up happening is somebody will say these are things I have to have in my trip and I'll give them those things and I will price it out for them and say, this is what this costs.

Keri Forbringer:

And then they can look for themselves. Now, I can't always because of the vendors that I work with, truly itemize out every single piece of your travel and say your meal in Tokyo is going to cost X amount of dollars, for sure guaranteed blah, blah, blah. But it is really good to have them kind of look through and say, oh, well, if we eliminated that expensive sushi dinner, maybe this is within our budget. And it's something that they can come to that conclusion themselves and again, be flexible.

Curtis Worcester:

So I feel like to this point with our conversation, we've built a list. So here I am, and I have my WanderList. Say it's 10 places I want to go. I start knocking them off. I'm traveling, not just to Chicago anymore. I've gone to Italy at this point. So I liked the piece at the beginning. You talked about a WanderList versus a bucket list. So here I am say, I'm halfway through my list. Is that time for me to start adding more? Like, what is, do people kind of revisit these lists? I think the answer is going to be yes based on our conversation about bucket list. But just kind of, can you talk about that process and kind of how to kind of keep refreshing that WanderList?

Keri Forbringer:

Yeah. I think it tends to happen really naturally where people will go on one trip and they'll say, "Wow, I never knew that I loved scotch so much." And I really want to go try Irish whiskey now, maybe my next trip suddenly becomes Ireland. And it wasn't even close to being on the top of the list before. We did this recently, my husband and I went to Japan in November of last year. And then that bumped up Thailand for us in our January of this year trip, which we got in just under the wire in 2020. So I think it really does happen naturally and it's something that's worth discussing. You know, you come home... Actually, I find a lot of people tend to plan their next trips, even just from a very basic standpoint, like on the plane ride home, that was so cool.

Keri Forbringer:

Or I would absolutely love to see these other things that are really similar to this thing that I saw or like that cooking class was the highlight of my trip. Maybe we should do a whole cooking trip, where we go and stay somewhere with an Italian master chef and learn how to make pasta from scratch and do something like that. So I would not say that there's a really formal time that people sit down and they like revisit their list and cross things off and rearrange, but it happens organically.

Ben Smith:

Sorry, you're busting my bubble. I'm Type-A.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah right.

Ben Smith:

I want that. Right. I want it to be all itemized. You're crossing stuff off, check it off. Like that's how I operate. Come on.

Keri Forbringer:

Well, then I have a feeling then that you would probably come back from your trip with pull down the airplane tray table with your little notebook, whatever you've got crossing things off and adding things in. I actually really like, I love having things on paper, but something like this, I love having digitally because you can cut and paste and move things around and share it with whoever your travel companions and stuff, and kind of make it maybe a Google Doc and have an interactive something going on if that intimidates you don't do that. It's supposed to be fun.

Ben Smith:

And I'll add Keri too, is one of the things that's really just kind of cool about this whole concept in this whole show that we're doing today about this idea of a WanderList is that, I've seen it in my own life with family members and friends is like, you can tell the level of excitement they have when they're looking forward to that thing. Because they're researching, they're actively participating in that thoughtful process. And I'm sure even engaging with you and your gate, you're filtering that even more, you're getting more ideas and excitement to it. And I'm sure just a really cool process to be a part of and that energy kind of going to you, it's all the best energy. It's all this, hey, I'm really looking forward to it. It really wants to turn it well.

Ben Smith:

I'm a little nervous. I'm a little excited. These are things that we're really just... Again, this is the cherry on the top Sunday type experiences that you're helping to plan. So it's really kind of cool to go, hey, I'm starting to put these pieces in place in every day. I start researching maybe a little bit something about it. And I get a little more formulation of what this trip actually looks like. It feels like half of the excitement is even in the, maybe the buildup towards the trip. Well, it is cool to have the trip itself, but even the day-to-day the monotony of our lives, sometimes which again, there's a lot of great stuff about routine and process and kind of doing those things you enjoy every day. But having that conversation every day where you're maybe even reconnecting with that friend group, the guy's trip, the girl's trip, talking to that friend group about, or talking to your spouse about, or talking to generations about it.

Ben Smith:

And everybody's getting excited. I think that's what we're trying to show here is, hey, let's put something into a process is like, hey, let's insert excitement into your life. Let's insert something. That's what the money's for here. Yes, it's cool. You got to do something. But the six months before that, you've got to process that. And now the three or four months afterwards where maybe even insistently you're bringing up visiting or that famous sushi bar that you visited. We heard about it every time we had sushi for the next three months afterwards, it didn't really measure up. We get it. But hey, the excitement there. And what a great thing is that you see people really living at the height of their lives with things and there's this kind of honeymoon afterwards and the planning before is really pretty special. So, that's really cool.

Keri Forbringer:

Yeah. I think really, I mean, so my family came to visit me when I was living abroad. My whole family came. It was the first time we'd all been abroad together. And we still talk about that trip. And it's been 12, 13 years since that particular trip. And we still make fun of my dad for not understanding the tram or doing what I mean, it's all in jest heats a very good sport about it. We still bring it up on Thanksgiving dinners or sitting around, I don't know, on the phone, just kind of joke about, hey, remember that time. So it's the before and the after, the anticipation you're right. That's what this is all about.

Ben Smith:

Yeah. And it just ties our relationships in. I think that's one of the goals that we see is look, the relationships I have, I want to continue to have, and I want to deepen, and I want to continue to find binds and things that, to do that all the way to do that is with time, time together and shared experiences. So that's our personal opinion of that. But, that's why I think that these are very valuable conversations to have very valuable in terms of really deep diving on all these topics. Because what are we really talking about is that it's not the WanderList. It's really the, how do I put something in place that creates excitement for my family, for my friends, the people I really care about to have excitement together.

Keri Forbringer:

Right. Right. And this is very much for your profession in my profession work really well, hand in hand because you've helped the people get to that point where they've got the money set aside, sitting there, it's doing whatever, and I can help them create-

Ben Smith:

Let's deliver it-

Keri Forbringer:

Yeah. It's not, yeah.

Ben Smith:

It's sad. We built the financial structure in place and there's roadblocks for them to actually do it. Is to go, why do we do all this work? Why do we build these things? And then we are scared of something and we don't do it.

Keri Forbringer:

Right.

Ben Smith:

Right. I get it, human nature we totally get it. But we want to see it executed because we built it in place for a reason for these things to happen.

Keri Forbringer:

Right. Right. And yeah. I think I find it really fun when somebody had that roadblock and they come to me and they're my God, I didn't, I don't know where to start. Like the anniversary trip that happens two years after the actual anniversary, because they can't actually start. They don't have the momentum. I think that's so cool that to help somebody build that momentum and you can see it you're right. People get really excited about it. They start talking about it. They start sending me emails in the middle of the night. Oh my God I just watched salt, fat acid heat on Netflix. I really want to go learn how to cook with that one lady there. And if we can make it happen, we'll make it happen. And that's so cool. Because I know that they're thinking about it. They're ready to go. It might be a year out and they are ready. That's awesome

Curtis Worcester:

Awesome.

Ben Smith:

They're investing.

Curtis Worcester:

So Keri, you've now made it to the end of your second episode on The Retirement Success in Maine Podcast. And as I'm sure you remember, we normally ask people a deep retirement question here, but because we've already asked you this question, we're going to change it up a little bit. So we want you to look ahead. So 30 or so years in the future, what is travel going to look like in your mind? Like what do you think it's going to be like, and then kind of tying in the retirement theme, picture a retiree in 30 years trying to see the world.

Keri Forbringer:

Yeah. I think travel has shave... We think about in the last 30 years, travel has really changed tremendously. So I'm not going to pretend that I can anticipate all the things. I mean, like smartphones didn't exist and now we can get them. We can get a Google Map of anywhere. I can talk into my phone and have Google translate, hold it up and say, "Can I please order." you know whatever. So like that I think is going to continue. And I can't even begin to imagine how technology is going to shape travel. But I do think for my own personal travel, I mean, travel has been a part of my life for years now and I'm young and I've made it a priority. And I don't see that changing. And I see many multi-generational trips in my future with my parents for the next couple of years many years, hopefully, and then children, grandchildren, I think.

Keri Forbringer:

And I think that's going to be true for a lot of the millennials who will be retiring in 30 years. They're going to try and make that a priority because it's been a priority. I don't see that changing. I hope we continue to see. There's kind of been a democratization of travel where there's just so much available. There's a lot of different flights to a lot of different destinations. It's so much more accessible now than it for many people than it was 30 years ago. I hope we continue to see that. And I think we'll probably see that go hand in hand with 10 of some, still the emphasis on authenticity really trying to live like a local in some ways. Yeah. And probably sustainability is going to change things that kind of emphasis. I think that's the direction we're going. So, will see.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah.

Ben Smith:

Nice. Well, Keri, we really appreciate you coming on the show today. It's always good to have conversations, but this is probably like the topic. I think where people will kind of go in retirement and to have you as an expert to come on, talk about your experiences, especially with travel advice and what you see in, and kind of your world. And we have such kind of really parallel segments here about how we coach and how we advise and helping people through that it just makes too much sense not to do this from time to time. So appreciate you coming on. Love to have you for a round three at some point down the road. Yeah. Looking forward to the next one.

Keri Forbringer:

Thank you so much for having me.

Ben Smith:

All right. Take care. So, dreaming and creating your WanderList questions with Keri Forbringer. So really good to have Keri back. Of course, she's our only so far repeat guest. Again, I think you could do a whole podcast series probably on travel and kind of how to do all this, maybe hint to Keri that maybe she should do that. But yeah, I think this is something where for our clients and it's a theme that keeps coming up and I think there's a thirst for more information on how to do stuff. And that's where we want to go, is this whole, a kind of a roadblock for a lot of our clients is that moment of, well, what do I do? Like, what's the first thing, where should I go? What do I experience? What if I get judged by my spouse on that?

Ben Smith:

All of those things I think are roadblocks that can kind of come up, so good to have that conversation with Keri and kind of work through that of kind of building that idea of a WanderList, again, not the bucket list idea. But we always wrap up every episode with lessons that we'd like to highlight to you and things that we took away from it. So Curtis, I will start with you in terms of things that maybe you took away from our conversation today with Keri.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah. You kind of teed it up there, Ben with the anti-bucket list talk. So, a piece that I really liked was near the end of the conversation we were actually talking about sort of revisiting your WanderList and kind of continuing, adding destinations and trips to it. And I thought that was really cool because Keri talked about being on the flight home from your trip and already planning your next trip and it gives you, I think you mentioned Ben, it gives you something to really look forward to the next trip. And if your list is really designed well and your trips are planned well, you're going to want to, it's just never going to end, which I think is great. Which is what these people who may be doing this type of travel will want. So I thought that was really cool and nice to hear that essentially, if you do it well, you'll keep doing it forever, so.

Ben Smith:

I think that's what we're trying to get to is a successful retirement. Sometimes it's just, again, being active and being alive and doing things that you want to do is for as long as you can do them. So where if you start running out of ideas and you go, well, I'm done with travel now, but travel is what really makes you happy.

Curtis Worcester:

Right.

Ben Smith:

Right. So if the process of traveling, whether it be the planning of it or actually doing it is your happiest experiencing new places, new things, new cultures, and you stop doing that. You're probably going to be less of yourself now, and you might be missing that. So again, getting something in place that kind of helps people there was a really cool thing. Abby, from your end, what was something that you took away from the show today?

Abby Doody:

I found very interesting her conversation about matching a budget with your travel plans. I think when you're trying to do it yourself, a lot of times you may not recognize kind of how expensive things are or take into account the exchange rate. There's all kinds of things that can affect the prices of a trip. And so bringing somebody in like Keri can be helpful because she at least has a ballpark idea when you're planning stuff kind of what to keep in mind for a budget. So how to best spend the money that you have set aside for this trip.

Ben Smith:

And also the idea of being adaptable. Why do it right is because she's obviously in it every day seeing this, and she's got the expertise like by the way, the exchange rate to the yen right now went really bad. So your price on that trip is going to be double what it was six months ago. So maybe we be adaptable and try the next trip on the list and kind of keep that in mind for another period of time and make it more affordable and stretch the budget a little bit more. Things like that, which I think if it's maybe any of the three of us, we go, North Japan. Here's the trip, here's what we're going to do. And if it just went from my budget, went from X to Y and it doubled, well, we might go, hey, table stakes at this point, we're too far in. We can't really undo all this, the travel that's a lot of work, so why don't we just go through with it?

Ben Smith:

You just resign yourself to paying more than that. And maybe that upsets other things down the road in terms of budgeting and thinking about that. So again, kind of a really cool kind of outtake was that like, to your point is kind of this whole budget and travel part was really pretty heat. I guess one of my personal favorite episodes was the whole conversation pieces with AmyK, was a podcast that we did. And I think that was kind of continue to see these theme of sometimes we're just not expressing to our partner about what we want to do or where we want to go or what we want to be or all those things. And we of course touch on that in today and travel.

Ben Smith:

And I think Keri had a really good point because I guess where I would be, would be the whole. Again, I would probably do what I mentioned about being passive years. I'd probably go, hey, you want to do this trip? Okay. I'll do it. I'll go along with you. Not my thing, I'll give it a C minus probably in terms of my experience. But I will do it because you will have the best time of your life, except for the person probably isn't having the best time of the life. Because they're dragging you around knowing that you're not being excited about it and that kind of depresses some of their excitement about it.

Ben Smith:

So I like to what she said is, look, hey, a lot of experiences right now are from groups. And what about going with the guy trip, the girl trip, the other friends and kind of getting that together. And we kind of talked about that with Sarah Geber was this whole idea about having bigger friend group as we age allows us to maybe age better because we have more people checking in on us. It gives us active communicating. So using maybe travel as a way to connect as the fiber there in our network is a pretty important piece there too. So, that was an interesting outtake.

Ben Smith:

I didn't obviously wouldn't have considered was, hey, why not? If there's anything that's maybe not clicking with that trip that you is really important to you and you don't want to kind of have that conflict between you, maybe just kind of going with a different friend group might be a big thing. And then you maybe have a lot to talk about with that partner when you come back, is something that's really important too. So that was a really kind of neat thread I thought was important to highlight for the end of this show, but, always appreciate everybody listening to our show today.

Ben Smith:

Again, if you want more information, more resources, we'll put a little bit more about Keri, her website, her travel agency there. So you can look at that on our blog. So, if you want more information, you can go to blog.guidancepointllc.com/32. So, we’re episode 32, so you go right there find more information there if you want to see the video and actually you see Keri, because I know sometimes, we're you want to maybe put the voice with the face. We are on YouTube as well. Check that out. If you have any questions at all or love to reach out, we'd love to hear from you, but we'll see you next time.