Transcript:

Intro  (00:01):

Do you struggle with what it means to be successful in your retirement? Trust us. You're not alone. Welcome to the Retirement Success in Maine podcast. Here, you'll go in depth with GuidancePoint advisors, investment consultants to hear stories about how retirees in Maine are navigating a successful retirement. Get insight into the inevitable challenges of aging and define what a successful retirement looks like.

Ben Smith (00:26):

Welcome back everyone to another episode of the Retirement Success in Maine podcast, where we help you reflect, recalibrate, and live more purposefully to your next chapter. I'm Ben Smith, and with me today is the Compass Time My Map, the gut instinct to my spreadsheet, my co-host, Curtis Worcester. How are you doing today, Curtis?

Curtis Worcester (00:46):

I'm doing well, Ben. I like this. We've got a couple different analogies here to start the show. I like it.

Ben Smith (00:52):

I know. Sometimes one's good, but two's better. So you got to add in a little bit. And I know obviously from episodes, we've covered the gamut here. And one thing that we've encountered, I think, as advisors with our clients is that many successful professionals a lot of times spend decades climbing ladders. They're building their titles, they're accumulating credentials, and they're measuring success by external validation. But what happens when that chapter ends? When your status fades and what's left is the question, who am I really, and what do I want to do now?

Curtis Worcester (01:25):

Yeah, you're exactly right, Ben. And I think this is an episode that's really going to hit home, not only for the two of us, but hopefully everybody listening. And I think we all know what it feels like to chase something because maybe it looks good on paper, but maybe not necessarily because it aligns with what really lights us up as individuals too.

Ben Smith (01:45):

Exactly. And for our clients that are nearing or in retirement, there's a tension between ego and heart, and sometimes it's between status and meaning, and it becomes very real. And that's why we're thrilled to welcome back someone who helps people navigate these deep, sometimes uncomfortable, but incredibly powerful conversations.

Curtis Worcester (02:05):

That's right, Ben. And again, our guest today, you just mentioned, it's somebody that hopefully everybody remembers, our loyal listeners all the way back in episode 27, where we explored how to master communication and to get what we want in retirement. So our guest today is an international award-winning speaker, bestselling author, an expert in navigating tough conversations. Our guest is consulted with global giants like Home Depot, Starbucks, Lockheed Martin, and Walmart. She's helped thousands of leaders, teams, and individuals ignite their potential, not by just being louder, but being braver. So our guest today holds a master's degree from Johns Hopkins University and has been featured on Bloomberg NBC, Fox and ABC. Her book, Get It: Five Steps to the Sex, Salary and Success You Want, tackles what she calls the real conversations we need to have with ourselves and others. So with that, kind of reintroduction, please join me in welcoming back to the Retirement Success in Maine podcast, Amy K.

(03:10):

Hutchins. Amy K, thank you so much for coming back on our show today.

AmyK Hutchens (03:14):

Curtis and Ben, thanks for having me. It's always a joy to reconnect.

Ben Smith (03:19):

Absolutely. And it's been too long. So I think as soon as we finish episode 27, we're like, "Mental note, we need to reach back out to Amy K." And 40

AmyK Hutchens (03:30):

Years

Ben Smith (03:30):

Later. Exactly. So we are not going to wait as long next time to reach back out to, because I know this episode is going to be fun and very action packed for our

AmyK Hutchens (03:41):

Listeners. Oh wait, no

Ben Smith (03:41):

Pressure. No pressure. No pressure. So Amy K, I know we read the bio and obviously we want to get into a lot of scenarios here and things that we want to talk about, but love for you to get to maybe a little bit of what kind of sparked your passion in terms of career and this heart-led ego here. And how did you find that passion for developing that philosophy?

AmyK Hutchens (04:09):

Well, I think that I found patterns over the years that just kept reaffirming that what I was doing was coming back to the tough conversations. Your life's on the other side of a tough conversation, whether that's with yourself at three o'clock or two o'clock in the morning, or whether it's with a colleague or a board member or your partner or a family member. And so this theme of we are not taught how to communicate. We are conditioned to build this ego and then we spend the second half of our life trying to get rid of it. And so these just common human experiences just kept coming up over and over. And so what started off as an elementary school teacher and really helping children to find their brilliance at a young age just morphed into adults keeping their brilliance sparked or reigniting it all together.

Ben Smith (04:57):

Love that. And brilliant sparked is a very action packed phrase because I think there's a lot of people that they get to disenfranchise from their roles and they're doing things from a financial lens and maybe there's just an exchange of labor for money and they're kind of losing some of that spark. So I love that. And I know that's something where what we're trying to accomplish today is help you out there find that spark as we kind of go through this. So there's a lot we want to dig in with you, Amy K. So I want to make sure we stay true to it and we kind of get a lot accomplished. So I want to ask our first question, because a lot of our listeners really spent their lives building impressive careers, but then when they start planning retirement, something happens. Titles disappear, right?

(05:45):

There's no more CEO or head of this or VP of that. And some of that internal voice gets louder. So why do you think it's so hard for high achievers to shift from being ego-led to heart-led living?

AmyK Hutchens (06:01):

So let's start with the fact that so much of our worth is equated with doing. From the time that we are little, we are affirmed for standing in line and raising our hands. And then as we get older, it's, oh, we're going to praise you for good grades or being the first seat in your band. So when you get to retirement, you have spent your whole life being told that your validation is external. Your worth is outside of you. And so for the first time when you retire, it's sort of like, okay, externally I've retired, but now a great way to think about it is your ego's actually just been laid off. And so what happens is you're starting to say, "Well, what do I do with this? Where do I get all the fuel that's kept me going when I don't have a milestone or a marathon finish line to cross?" And so one of the things that I often tell people who are facing retirement is there's a myth and you are going to think that you're going to fear this change.

(07:03):

We don't actually fear the change. We fear whether we're going to be successful in the new way and we fear anything that threatens our identity and retirement absolutely threatens the conditioned ego. And so it's really important to start thinking about, okay, I'm not losing titles, right? I'm gaining an opportunity to play differently about how I show up and what I want to do. And that's an adjustment and that's a real adjustment. And so a lot of people are like, "Oh, but that feels so uncomfortable," then you're doing it right.

Curtis Worcester (07:38):

Oh, that's great. And you kind of tied into my next part of questions here for you, Amy K. And this topic of how to lead from the heart, not your ego. So something that kind of stood out to us, I think is the idea that ego thrives on control while the heart thrives on curiosity. So I guess I want to ask you, how have you seen this show up in the conversations you've had with leaders, especially those kind of at that crossroads in life, whether it's a new role or retirement in this case? Well,

AmyK Hutchens (08:09):

It's interesting. So control sounds a lot like directives disguised as questions. And so I'll give you an example. Don't you think this would be a good idea for me in retirement or don't you think this is the best path forward or wouldn't it make sense if I or wouldn't it make sense of you? And really what they're looking for again is, I just want you to say yes, I just want you to agree with me. That's control. And then in a lot of critical conversations, leaders will ask questions that sound like that because they're still interested in you doing what they want you to do and being directive. When you shift into the heart, you mentioned Curtis, curiosity. Curiosity sounds like the genuine bigger, bad, or better, bolder question where I'm going to ask an open-ended question, I'm going to do the Socratic, what am I missing, and then I'm going to listen, and I'm going to listen actively.

(09:02):

So it's not the me trying to convince you, me listening to defend. It's the, "Oh, Ben, Curtis, say more about that. Tell me what you mean by that. Well, what would that look like and what would that feel like? " And then really showing up to listen to the answer. And I know that that sounds trite on the surface, but what it really means is you give up your agenda. That's the practical application of that. You're listening so intently and so genuinely that you're fully present and you're like, "Okay, I'm not trying to force an outcome. I'm not trying to make this thing happen. I'm not trying to figure it out. I'm really open to seeing how it unfolds."

Intro / Outro (09:39):

Love that.

Ben Smith (09:40):

I'm just pausing for a second, Amy K, because there's a reaction I want to give you here because it's just sparking a conversation I think Curtis and I have had with a client a few months ago and they're poaching retirement or they're almost there and they're kind of looking this husband and wife and they're looking at each other and the husband is kind of talking the way you're saying. It's like he's trying to build direction. He's trying to build consensus and he's going to each one of us and he's saying, "Well, wouldn't it be smart if I did it financially?" That would be smart because he wants the finance people to agree with him. And then the spouse is, "Well, while we did this, this and this, then then maybe we could travel and do it that way." And he wants her to say yes versus the curiosity part of like, "Well, let's redesign this thing.

(10:24):

Where do we want to be? Where are we going to be happiest? Who's going to be around us and what would our days be filled like and who would be participating in the activities we want to be a part of? " And so we asked the question back to him about the, well, if you were redesigning this and you thought through this and you could tell we were puncturing ego, right? We were puncturing this like, "Well, that's not what I was ... I

Intro / Outro (10:47):

Thought

Ben Smith (10:47):

We were building it this way and it had to be kind of all lined up and organized." And the wife was like, "Ooh, okay, we need to talk about this more. These guys have some wisdom here, which is ... " And you raised the point in our episode with you last, I have a story in my head that you want this whole retirement thing to be all lined up perfectly and everything is going to go to plan. And we are kind of going like, things don't go to plan sometimes. Curiosity is exploring and failing and then exploring and succeeding and finding this. So I wanted to kind of give that back to you as a piece because we're seeing this happen more and more, which is great.

AmyK Hutchens (11:25):

Okay. Well, first of all, you warmed the cockles of my heart by bringing up a magical phrase from episode 27. The fact that that stuck is really great. The other magical phrase that'll just toss in right there is, I want to explore possibilities without any pressure to make a decision. We're not making a decision. And that allows people to relax and kind of take a step back or pull some of their armor off. And so sometimes just saying, "Hey, we're not making a decision today. I just want to explore possibilities and see what the consequences or unintended consequences might be. " Or the flip side, what a possible outcome that we really like is. And that allows people to be like, "Okay, I'm willing to put my toe in that water. I may not jump in, but I'm willing to explore with you because we're not deciding the opposite of where I think we were going.

(12:13):

"

Ben Smith (12:13):

Gotcha. And again, I think from that conversation too, people's lens of success has completely changed. And to your point, I know we're going to talk about ego more and that lens is changing a whole lot. But I think that from that conversation, that was what was being opened up a little bit more is like, "Hey, we can have a lot more personal success and it might not mean as much financial success, but we're going to be happier. We're going to have more impact on people because of this. " So I think the conversations are starting to evolve here. And we like that in terms of our role as well as the money is a tool to be used for a higher purpose rather than money is the tool to be accumulated just to feed ego. And I know, again, we're going to talk a little bit more about that.

AmyK Hutchens (12:54):

I was going to say, we're going to dive into all that. We get a lot more. I'm not taking it with you.

Ben Smith (12:58):

Okay. So I do want to ask a prestige question here and let's walk through this scenario. So we got a recently retired executive, has a chance to take on a part-time board seat,

Intro / Outro (13:10):

And

Ben Smith (13:10):

Really not because it excites them, but because it keeps their image intact, because I'm retired, I don't want to be deemed useless, right? I want to be on a board and I could be impacting decisions and organizational change. And so they're worried that stepping away from professional status will make them feel invisible. So what would you say to this person as they're grappling that level of change in their life?

AmyK Hutchens (13:35):

I'm going to be a little irreverent, but I feel like I hear the beep, beep, beep of that truck backing up. I'm like, back away from the board table, back away. And the reason that I say it is because before you make that commitment, and by the way, I know too many individuals who retire aren't sure, aren't clear, aren't calm in the next season. And so they immediately start saying yes to things because they're having a withdrawal from significance. So they're sort of like, well, subconsciously they're asking themselves, if I'm not in the room, define what that room is, but some room of import. If I'm not in the room, do I still matter? And so they're saying yes to a room that they may or may not want to be in. And so oftentimes you'll see somebody say yes to a board seat and then they get frustrated, they get angry, they don't want to go, they resent that they said yes.

(14:27):

And so they sort of check out of it and it makes them feel worse instead of better. And so part of what happens in retirement is this adjustment. And I guess the way that I would frame it is there's two types of visibility. There's being seen for what you do and there's being felt for who you are. And I'm going to say that again, being seen for what you do and being felt for who you are. Again, you've spent this whole career trajectory oftentimes, the majority of the time, being seen for what you do. "Oh, you donated millions to the hospital. Oh, you grew that company from 40 million to a billion. "So again, and I've said this before, your worth is tied up in that. And now it's the, " Oh, I need to show up and say, I am felt for who I am and how I play and how I show up and how you feel about yourself.

(15:19):

"And so when you start shifting that lens, you realize I might not need to sit on that board seat. My significance to how I matter is not going to be about which room I'm in, but who I am in any room I choose to step in. And I know that sounds a little woo-woo, but the practical application is do not say yes really quickly to something that you might regret in six months. Just kind of sit back and be like, " Who do I want to be in this season?

Curtis Worcester (15:48):

"That's really good. I like that. So I want to just keep going, Amy K, with these scenarios. So essentially, Ben and I have just workshopped a bunch of scenarios for this conversation, so I'm going to throw the next one at you. So one we hear a lot is the should dilemma, if you will. So I should spend more time with my grandkids, or I should volunteer, or I should take the board seat, going off that scenario, or I should travel more. But I think there's this underlying, nothing feels like right. Again, there's just these shoulds, right? So we're chasing somebody else's idea of fulfilling this retirement time for us. So how do we help this person replace the shoulds with the wants and how do we kind of identify those?

AmyK Hutchens (16:35):

So let's start with the trite that we've all heard. Stop shoulding on yourself, right? We've all heard that and that's the shoulding on yourself. More seriously though, let's go back for a second. What is this ego? This ego is a false self, capital S for self. It's a false self. It's a conditioned self. So if you think about it, your ego is made in the world. Your divinity is of the world. Your ego is made in the world where you grew up, your family values, geographically, geopolitically, culturally, societally, economically, all of these things have shaped your ego. So it is conditioned to should based on all these external inputs. I should go to college. I should save money. I should buy this type of car. I should have 2.4 children. I should define success this way. I should measure my accomplishments and my worth. And again, all these shoulds externally.

(17:31):

So what's fascinating is when you retire, you leave the workplace, but you haven't left the conditioning if you are still shoulding on yourself. I should spend time with the grandkids, right? I should volunteer. I should sit on a board. I should give back. None of these things are inherently bad. The question is, is it aligned with who and how you want to play? Is it what's going to light you up in the world today? So it's interesting. I've been asked to be on a lot of boards in the last several years. I have said no to all of them because my family, we were losing my father and that's where I wanted to be. That was important to me to prioritize it. My sense of significance was spending time with my family, and this last year with my dad before he passed away. I didn't want to be sitting in a board meeting.

(18:17):

I didn't want to be traveling all over. Somebody else might be like, "That's exactly what I want to do. I want to sit on four boards and I want to travel and I want to give back." It really comes down to instead of shoulding and letting the world tell you who you want to be, it's who do I want to be? So again, it's that sense of how do I want to feel on a Tuesday afternoon? Well, then reverse engineer that. If how you want to feel is fill in the blank, well then what do I need to do today to get to a Tuesday that feels really good?

Curtis Worcester (18:47):

Yeah. Oh, that's fantastic.

Ben Smith (18:49):

And I'll kind of echo there, Amy, K, is that I think you can tell the people that have filled their cup appropriately because when they walk in the room, they're smiling, they're happy to see everybody and they're influencing everybody in the room because people are like, "Oh, well, look who's here. And I'm so happy that they're here and they're happy to see me and they light everybody and they effuse energy." They just kind of pour it out of them because you could see all the things that they did. And it feels like the people that are shutting all over themselves are, maybe they're doing what they feel like others tell them to do and they're having to release a lot of energy and maybe their cups are very empty at times. So they're walking in the room and they're not excited to be there. They're not happy with maybe who they are in that moment.

(19:39):

And you see that a lot of people that are doing the things that are the wants versus the shoulds. And I think the wants are, they're happier people and they're effervescent with, I think, their energy a lot. And that's the life thing, that's not just a retirement thing, but I think we see that a whole lot. So I think that's an important kind of highlighter to put on there.

AmyK Hutchens (20:01):

It is. You nailed it. I think that if you look at shoulds as the language or the vocabulary of the ego, the want and the vitality of having your life force lit is the language and the vocabulary of your heart. And so you just reminded me of a mantra that I love, it's one of my favorite mantras. It's one that I use to remind myself that my state of being is my number one doing, my state of being, because when I am lit up, when I am naturally fired up about life and what I'm involved in, that's contagious and that lights up everybody else. Yeah,

Ben Smith (20:37):

I agree. I agree. I would add 40 more things to that Amy K, but I want

AmyK Hutchens (20:41):

To get some

Ben Smith (20:41):

More things. This

AmyK Hutchens (20:43):

Is a five hour podcast, right? Yeah,

Ben Smith (20:45):

Right. It is. Yeah. I mean, Joe Rogan can do it, so why can't we? So I want to ask about, and we asked a similar scenario in the last time we talked, but it was a powerful one and I think it's important to revisit. And one of our past clients at age 18, he joined Air Force hoping to fly, but never became a pilot. He went on to a long successful, in this case, I'm just going to anonymize it, firefighting career. When we asked what he'd still love to do, he said, "Be a pilot, absolutely." And his spouse was shocked. How would you coach somebody, Amy Kay, to honor that voice that's been buried for decades because I always wanted to do it, I never got to. And now I'm just still stuck in this neutral phase where I haven't done it, I haven't done it, and I don't know if I ever will, but I would love to.

(21:34):

How would you kind of spur that on?

AmyK Hutchens (21:37):

I remember this. So I think today what I would say, maybe my answer shifted a little bit, but what does being a pilot represent to you? And I would ask him that directly. What does that still mean to you? Does it mean mastery, freedom, adventure? Maybe it's a version of themselves that they never got to fully meet. And here's the crazy thing about dreams. We often say that dreams are buried and there's a negative consequence of like, "Oh, I had to give up my dream to go do something else." Well, that can be true, but here's another way to look at it. Sometimes dreams get buried because your success outperforms it. So here's what I mean. He wanted to be a pilot, but then he went into business and maybe he was asked to go into a family business, who knows, and he was very successful.

(22:24):

And then you sort of get the golden handcuffs and then you have this beautiful marriage, not a bad one. You have a beautiful marriage and you have all these kids and then you have all these grandkids and you retire and there's still this heartlit voice in you that says, "I still kind of want to be a pilot." Now, what we first do is the ego comes in to keep you safe to protect you. The ego's going to say, "That's ridiculous. You're 65. You don't even probably have the biology to qualify to be a pilot, right?" That's the wrong form of thinking. We just need to recognize, hey, that's your ego, protecting you, keeping you safe. What again do I want to feel? Do I want the freedom? Do I want the mastery? Do I want to be able to maybe start taking flying lessons? And maybe, again, and I say this, maybe logically you will never be able to do the thousand hours on your own.

(23:13):

It's not about that. It's rarely about the playing. It's about how you wanted to feel. And it doesn't mean you can't do it in some way, shape or form. So you might end up saying yes to flying lessons under certain constraints, whatever, or you might say, "Actually, you know what? It's not impractical. There's just a version of me that I wanted to play with and I can do it some other way." But here's what we don't do. We don't talk it through. So what we do is we just spin our, "Oh, I always wanted to be a pilot. Oh, I always wanted a pilot. Oh, it hurts my heart. I always wanted to be a pilot." No, stop. Walk it through. What were you after? What version of yourself were you looking for? How did you want to feel? What could fulfill that now or how could you play or massage that?

(23:54):

I think that those are questions worth answering in a very methodical, thoughtful, loving way.

Curtis Worcester (24:03):

I love that a lot.That's a really good way to go about that. Whether it's piloting or anything, I think it's important to slow down and think it through and talk through it. So that's awesome. I'm going to keep going here with

Intro / Outro (24:15):

Another

Curtis Worcester (24:15):

Scenario. This one, one of my personal favorites. We all know that egos can build walls, if you will, between people, especially when it comes to family, family relationships, family dynamics. I think everybody listening can relate to this. So let's say, I guess my question to you, Amy Case, let's say there's tension between, in this case, a retiree and maybe their adult child or even an in- law. Oh, that's

AmyK Hutchens (24:41):

Never happened to Chris.

Curtis Worcester (24:42):

Yeah, no, never. Come on. Why are we making this up here? So everyone's entrenched, everyone's defensive. If you're just kind of a fly on the wall in this scenario, how do you guide someone to truly speak from the heart even when their ego is just screaming at them to chime in and win the conversation, if you will, or win the scenario?

AmyK Hutchens (25:02):

Okay. So you just use the provocative word win.

Curtis Worcester (25:06):

Yeah.

AmyK Hutchens (25:07):

If you are trying to win, and I'm going to put that in quotes, if you're trying to win in any conversation, you have already lost the connection and the relationship. So most of us, when we're in our ego, we're trying to prove, how do I prove my point? How do I prove where I'm coming from? How do I prove that I'm smarter than you? Or I have this figured out in 10 different angles that are all better than yours, right?

(25:29):

That's a non-starter. The first question to ask is how do I preserve and protect the love in this relationship? Or if you're in a work environment, it's not family, you can still say, how do I preserve and protect our connection? Just the relationship dynamic. And then from there, how you show up is very different because you've just set a very different intention and your behaviors are going to mimic your intention. So to me, it's the, I'm going to move from proving to protecting and preserving. And then I'm going to kind of throw in here, I'm known for magical phrases. So I would use something like, "I care too much about you to not say." Or, "I want us to explore these possibilities and I want us to stay open-minded and I really want us to listen to what each other has to say." You could also say something like, "I know I have my perspective.

(26:22):

Let's just be honest. I also want to hear yours because I want to know what I'm missing. I want to know what I can learn or how I might see this differently or there might be a solution that I haven't even thought of and I'm open to it. " This is really hard to do. It's easy for us to sit here on a podcast and be like, "Oh yeah, say that. " When you're emotionally invested in something and you're really trying to prove, you have to ask yourself, "Is proving this worth losing the relationship?"

Ben Smith (26:47):

And I know we've kind of gone to it a few times, Amy K, but ego successful leaders that are used to receiving information and then making decisions and then kind of we are running with this decision. This is a final

Intro / Outro (27:05):

Decision

Ben Smith (27:06):

Here and I've made it. And I think that's a different dynamic when you're saying, "Hey, there's not a power dynamic involved." The phrases you just said are opening up this, "Let's talk about this equally. Let's consider all possibilities. Let's put aside kind of the ego power dynamic stuff, whether it be age or success or career or whatever it might be. " I think those are all really important things that you just pointed out there.

AmyK Hutchens (27:35):

Well, if you go back, have either of you seen your children mimic your behavior, whether they pick up a play phone and then they're all their expressions of how you two talk on the phone or they mimic the way that you walk. If you put that in, let's just say 50 some years of raising your kids, you have taught them how to play. So you've mimicked power plays, you've mimicked the dynamics, you've mimicked the, you're doing as I say, here's my directive, right? We're not discussing this. You've taught them that. So the first person who needs to set down the armor, be vulnerable and change the pattern is you. And when you do it, watch the whole energy in the room shift. And I'm not saying they're going to be unicorns and rainbows. They're just going to be like, it's going to be more like the dog that cocks its head is like, I'm trying to understand what's going on here.

(28:28):

But you're the person who has to go first. You're the person that has to drop the armor first, change the way that you're playing, use not the ego's vocabulary, but the heart's vocabulary to say, "I'm not here to win. I'm here to connect."

Ben Smith (28:43):

Okay. Well, I want to keep rolling on a few scenarios. And one is there's a, of course, fear is a big theme that we're discovering here as we're retiring and looking at things. And as you said, ego is a big part of that fear, connection. But of course, many clients say, "I'm too old to start over." Or, "What if I fail?" But what if the next thing they pursue isn't about achievement, it's about joy, right? How do we frame failure when we're shifting from legacy building to soul feeding?

AmyK Hutchens (29:15):

I think, Ben, the biggest way to fail at retirement is just to stop showing up for how you want to feel. I mean, I know that that sounds simple, but maybe there's a profoundness in the simplicity. I mean, you can't really fail if you're showing up for life. It doesn't mean that something's going to go right every day. It just means like, "Oh, I'm going to show up every day because this is my life." As Mary Oliver would say, "This is my one wild and precious life. And so I want to feel alive. I want to feel vibrant. I want to feel loving. I want to be doing what I care about. I want to be surrounded by those that I love." So the only way, or maybe one of the biggest ways to fail in retirement is to just stop showing up Whoop for how you want to feel.

Curtis Worcester (30:02):

Yeah, that's good. So I have a question. We've kind of rotated away from our scenarios for a second. I have a question that if anybody here is a long time listener to our show, I always say I have a question that's my favorite, but this one might be my favorite of today's episode. So it's a chance for you to share your expertise with us in a quick bullet format, if you will, Amy K. So you've obviously helped so many people find the right words for their truth. And I just want to ask, I'll put you on the spot. What are a few phrases? I know we mentioned those magical phrases you have. So what are a few phrases or sentence starters that you can share that help people kind of quiet that ego and speak from the heart? Again, especially in these hard hitting life-changing conversations.

AmyK Hutchens (30:49):

I think owning it. So what happens later in life is we want to break the patterns that we've been communicating with for a long time. So I find myself, when I'm coaching people who are in this type of transition, I'll share a lot of magical phrases such as, "Okay, wait a minute, I didn't mean to say that. " Or, "I noticed that I just started sounding defensive. Let me rephrase that. " Or, "That came out wrong. What I really meant to say was ... " Or, "Okay, that was my reaction. Hang on. Let me respond thoughtfully to that. " And so what you're doing is you're owning through awareness in real time that you've got a default pattern of either being defensive, strong arming, coming across a little too directive again. And so you're just like, "Oh, I want to hit the reset button." Or, "Let's back up.

(31:34):

Let me redo that. That was a reaction. Here's my response." It can also be when you start a tough conversation of, "I've been avoiding this. And I've been avoiding this because I didn't want to hurt your feelings or it makes me uncomfortable to talk about this. And then here's the bridge and I care too much to not have it now or I care too much about us to not have this conversation now or I love you too much to not have this conversation now." So all of those phrases are about vulnerability, which can be really hard because you're already feeling a little raw in retirement, but that is the bridge to what is now most important. And that is your legacy is your connectivity, how people are going to remember you, your relationships. And I'm not going to be trite, but I think this is accurate.

(32:20):

You're done with the making money. Now it's managing it. Now it's like, okay, I don't need to feel safe, protected, secure. I've kind of accomplished all of that. And so now I'm coming up for air and going, "Ooh, okay. Now I need to mend some fences or repair some bridges." And so these are the conversations I've been avoiding. This is what I really want to say. Or you catch yourself in a formerly useful behavior that's no longer useful and you're like, "Oh, wait, that's not what I meant to say. That's not who I want to be. That's not how I want to show up."

Ben Smith (32:56):

And I love that indicate when you're starting with, hey, owning ... Again, if you play through that conversation, you're kind of owning some of your default responses to then not to pull a Ted Lasso, but the being curious, not judgmental thing is to use that and say, "Hey, let's explore something together." And to your point about taking the armor off of, I need to take this armor off maybe piece meal by piecemeal here to show you I'm fully invested into this relationship together and exploring this difficulty or creating a bridge between each other or is to find those pieces together and the curiosity leading and that you're actually invested in what they're saying and how they're saying and finding the results and not just like as soon as they say something you don't like. And all of a sudden the armor went right back on and the chain mail and the helmet and all the night armor kind of started throwing out like, nope, nope.

(33:53):

It has to stay off all the way throughout. You can't just disarm and then re-arm. You got to kind of lead through it. So I think those are really, really cool.

AmyK Hutchens (34:01):

Well, maybe that's what we'll do now. And when we retire, we'll just say the first requirement is to go back and rewatch all of Ted Lasso.

Ben Smith (34:08):

I mean, it is pretty awesome. It is a great show. But I want to go to your book, get it. So you lay out in that book, Five Steps for Getting What We Real Want, and not just the polished version, but the raw human version. So what steps from your book would you apply to someone trying to transition from being ego-driven to heart-led living in retirement?

AmyK Hutchens (34:32):

All five. And they're super straightforward. So I think that if we go back to what I said earlier, your state of being is your number one doing, then you have to decide, okay, am I clear on what I really want in my heart? Not an external validation. Because again, that condition self is the, "Hey, we're going to define success as," and the world will tell you how to define it based on where you live. And so you have to get really clear on what matters most to you now. What do you care about? How do you align the values with your own priorities and where you're spending time? And I don't mean through lip service, because a lot of us will say, "Oh, I care so much about my family." And it's like, "Well, then why did you spend five hours on your phone today?" So it really is getting clear on what you want and then aligning those behaviors.

(35:20):

Seeking connection is part two. We're still all about that. That hasn't changed in retirement. In fact, if anything, it's probably been emphasized more. You got to tune into all the conversations. Now, this is where I would slow down for a second because most people in a Western world have not been fully present for the people that they say are their number one priority. And so you've really got to decide how do I want to use the precious hours that I have left that bring me the most meaning, that give me pleasure and purpose. And that's that intersection of happiness that we talked about last time, really standing at the intersection of pleasure and purpose, which allows you to go then kind of segues nicely into section four, which is, and I'm going to say this respectfully, own your shit. So this is when retirement is often uncomfortable for people when they haven't always made the best choices along the way, and now they have to own them.

(36:13):

So we get defensive. That's our natural human tendency on an ego perspective. So maybe your kid comes to you and now they're in their 40s, now they're in their 50s, you've retired and they're like, "Mom, dad, you didn't spend a lot of time with me. " And then they'll say something like an absolute, "Yeah, you were never really there." Your ego gets triggered on the never. And so what you want to do is like, "I was there. I went to your college graduation," and they're like, "Whatever." One of the best things that you can do to take the wind out of somebody's sails is to just own it. Somebody comes to you and is like, "Yeah, you were never really there." Instead of getting defensive, lean into it and say, "You're right. In hindsight, I wish I was there more." Now, you didn't say you went to their graduation, you didn't point out the times that you were, you were just giving them a chance to be seen, heard, and understood.

(37:09):

And that's a big difference to being defensive, which really then allows you to say, "Okay, I'm going to move into that step five of I'm going to show up with a soft heart and a firm spine. I'm going to know my lines. Now I'm going to lean in with compassion, the soft heart, but I am going to hold my own. I'm not going to let you walk all over me. I'm not going to let you disrespect me, but I am going to honor the fact that there's some truth to what you said and I'm going to own it and then I'm going to say, and you know what? I'd really love for us to spend more time going forward."

Ben Smith (37:39):

That's

AmyK Hutchens (37:40):

Something

Ben Smith (37:40):

You could change. Yep.

Curtis Worcester (37:42):

Yeah. No, that's really good. I want to expand on something you just said there. It kind of ties into my next point and question and it's connection. I think connection is something that comes up in all of our conversations on this show. It seems to be kind of a through thread in retirement specifically, but I think as we've progressed technologically, connection happens virtually, social media, things like that a lot too. And I'm just going to be honest and say something, I look at platforms like LinkedIn, for example, certainly while people are in their careers and doing their thing, it's a great way to connect, of course, but it also feels like my feed, if you will, is just one big ego feed as well. It's look what I did or look who endorsed me or look what I'm up to now. So my long-winded question for you, Amy K, is if I'm somebody transitioning into retirement, I have all these relationships from my career.

(38:41):

I want to stay connected. Again, I'm not singling out LinkedIn on purpose, but just thinking of the kind of professional social network there. How can I feel connected without then falling right back into that trap, if you will, of trying to measure worth with now my past accolades and kind of where I've been?

AmyK Hutchens (39:01):

So let's expand it. All the social media outlets, right? No matter what they are, I'm going to go a little provocative here. It's not the platform, it's the posture. So it's not the platform. It's the posture. LinkedIn didn't create the ego. It gave it a microphone, but it didn't create it. And so I think it's how you show up. Now, we know full stop, Curtis, that people feel more anxious, more stressed, and more mildly depressed after spending time on the social platforms

(39:35):

Because they make us feel awful when we're looking through the eye of our ego. The eye of our ego sees it all as ... I kind of combine these words of comparison and competition. I call it competition, but we spend all this time in comparetition of the, "Oh, look what you achieved and look at your awards, look at all of the things that you're doing." And even though we might be doing very great things ourselves, our ego's like, "Oh, I'm not good enough. I'm not smart enough. I'm not talented. I'm not rich enough. I'm not taking enough vacations. I'm not winning enough awards." So it's really, it's not the platform, it's the posture. When I have done the work, and what I mean by work is when I am secure in who I am, not my ego, my heart. When I am feeling like I am giving back and I am living my values and I'm incongruence, my mind, body, heart, spirit are all in integrity and doing what I say I'm going to do based on my priorities and my values, nothing on LinkedIn, nothing on Instagram, nothing on TikTok, you name the platform.

(40:35):

It doesn't bother me. It doesn't bother me. Now here's what's also interesting. I also spend less time on it because it doesn't fuel me in the way. And what's fascinating is, well, people are like, "Well, just control your feed." Now, this is where I am going to be even more provocative. People will say, "Oh, control your feed. Make sure it's like all the puppy videos if that's what you want. " We now know that even watching and scrolling through positive feeds can make you feel bad because it's like, I don't have enough of that joy. I don't have enough of that positivity. I don't have enough of, I don't have a puppy. And so I say, get off of social media more, do the work that allows you to feel good about yourself. And remember, it is not the platform, it's your posture. And when you start looking through the eye of the heart, things just get a whole lot easier.

Curtis Worcester (41:21):

Yeah. No, that's a great one. And I think not just retirees could listen to that answer there. I think that's important for everyone. So thank you.

Ben Smith (41:28):

And Amy K, I'll just add it. I want to add to that answer too, because I think there's something else on social media is that I think it's to your point about being ego-led and the comparetition piece is, I think we've spent a lot of time trying to boost ourselves up and make ourselves look better in lots of ways, but I like that there's an opportunity there with social media too, to make others the hero in that story as well, is that there's a lot of opportunity to go, "Hey, I'm really grateful for my teammate and they did such a great job today and they put all this work in and I want to highlight them because they're not going to say this themselves or my granddaughter did this and made the school team. And it was something she's worked for for six years and she finally made it.

(42:14):

" And it's that stuff of like, I think there's a lot of, when it's making other people the hero of the story instead of yourself having to be the hero all the time, it feels much more genuine and authentic and it just feels like that's a much more ... Personally, it just feels a better use of the platform that we're celebrating others. And if we're all celebrating others, you're probably getting some of that celebratory echoed back to you as well. But again, you don't need to do that.

(42:46):

It will feel great to put spotlight on things that you see, you observe, and you can kind of make sure that other get that spotlight. Because again, if you're comfortable with who you are, I don't need the spotlight myself. I feel very comfortable and shining on everybody else and I can feel really good about that. So I wanted to throw that in as well.

AmyK Hutchens (43:06):

Oh, I think that's great. There are a myriad of beautiful uses for social media. There are. I don't want to go down as being quoted as, "Oh, I don't support it. " I do. Everything from knowing what's going on in the world, to being able to donate to causes that you believe in, to yes, celebrating and holding up others and shining a light in a world that can be dark, it's all excellent. I just want to be very cautious that when you go to that platform, think about your own posture before you open that app.

Ben Smith (43:37):

Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Good point. So want to ask a legacy meaning question, right? So we've talked a lot about in career about defining success and we, so we as in Curtis and Ben wondering as our roles as advisors, and again, kind of through this podcast, you almost kind of go, "Hey, you get a level of aging expertise as well that comes in with what we've been asking of you and the peers have come on this show." But how do we help people shift the question from what do I do to who am I becoming? And especially when it comes to legacy, how can we kind of do better here and how can we help there?

AmyK Hutchens (44:18):

Well, so many of our roles, the roles that we play, they retire, but character traits, qualities never retire. And so if you think about, yes, a resume is part of your legacy. Hey, I built that hospital and I served all those people, those are good things, but it's just a part of your legacy. It's not the whole summation of it. And so I think really considering about how do you want to be present now? What character and qualities do you want to bring into the room? So I've always said, because I'm a communications coach, it isn't the loudest voice in the room that matters. It's the most regulated nervous system in the room that gets to be the leader because it's the calm, grounded, confident, hey, it's kind of the old, old ... Now I'm going to date myself. But way back when there was a commercial, it was like when E.F.

(45:11):

Hutton speaks, people listen, right? And so because it's above the noise, now it's the, "Hey, I'm so confident in leading with love and kindness and patience and civility and respect that when I speak, people listen." And so right now it's about building a legacy on presence. And if you bring it into the modern world, it's one of the most missing things. We are not present. We are constantly thinking about the past, we're worried about the future, we're distracted by all the noise on our phones or our devices and you just choosing to be more fully present with the people that you love and care about, that's going to have a bigger impact on your legacy than anything.

Curtis Worcester (45:55):

Love it. Yeah, I love it.

Ben Smith (45:57):

Great

Curtis Worcester (45:58):

Answer. So a similar angle, if you will, I've reached my now second favorite question of this conversation. So we've kind of reached the end of our discussion here, Amy K, and this has been a beautifully honest and heartfelt conversation, so I can't thank you enough for coming on. You've helped us reframe success in a way that does go far beyond the resume, if you will. But again, before I let you go, I do have one final question for you that I ask all of our guests on this show. Again, being a retirement success podcast, I got to ask you the retirement question and we may have asked you before, but for those who didn't hear it, I'm going to ask it again anyway. So when you personally get to retirement, Amy K, how are you going to define what your own personal retirement success looks like?

AmyK Hutchens (46:49):

Love. Yeah.

(46:50):

And that would probably not be the answer that I might've given in episode 27, but that was a long time ago. And now bearing down on 55, I think it's showing up fully present in a heart of love, authentically engaged because I love myself and I love who I'm with. And that is one of the hardest arcs in our lives is to learn to just be authentically present. I'm not trying to please you. I'm not performing. I'm not trying to control what you think about me. I'm not trying to control the scenario. I'm not carrying all the emotional labor. I am just fully present. I am authentically myself. I am leading from love. I'm speaking and behaving from love and I'm trying to bring love to all the places that it hasn't been. I

Curtis Worcester (47:37):

Mean, can't talk that.

Ben Smith (47:39):

Yeah, that's really good, which is obviously not a retirement thing. It's a life thing is it's just obviously a striving and kind of continue to refine and get better at it. So thank you for all that, Amy K. There's so much to unpack of today's episode. I think I'll probably be re-listening to this about two or three times and I might be going, "Amy, okay, you said this. I got to respond to you. " But we really appreciate it. We want to put obviously all your links on our blog as well and we'll point out the book, but thank you so much for coming on our show and we really appreciate you and hope to have you next time.

AmyK Hutchens (48:13):

Oh, thanks for having me. My heart is full. All

Ben Smith (48:15):

Right. Thanks, Amy K. Bye-bye.

Curtis Worcester (48:17):

So a big thank you again to Amy K. Hutchins for joining us again today on our show. Always such a great conversation with her and hopefully that something useful came out of that conversation for everybody listening. I know it did for you and I, Ben. But again, just for everybody, we'll have our links in our blog. So we'll link to Amy K's book, Get It. We'll have a link to her website and maybe some other resources there in terms of getting in touch with Amy K. Again, our blog. So this is episode 122. So we're almost a hundred episodes later with Amy K.

Intro / Outro (48:51):

She was

Curtis Worcester (48:51):

27 before. So hopefully won't go another hundred before she's on again. But again, so for all of today's kind of resources and show notes, you can find them at blog.guidancepointllc.com/122. So again, episode 122 for today's show. And again, just a big thank you so much to Amy K and thank you to you all for tuning in and we will catch you next time.

Outro (49:18):

Ladies and gentlemen, you've just listened to an information filled episode of the Retirement Success in Maine Podcast. While this show is about finding more ways to improve your retirement happiness, GuidancePoint Advisor's mission is to help our clients create a fulfilling retirement. We do financial planning so that people can enjoy retirement and align their monetary resources to their goals. If you're wondering about your own personal success, we invite you to reach out to us to schedule a 45-minute listening session. Our advisors will have a conversation with you about your goals, your frustrations, and your problems. Make sure you check out GuidancePoint advisors on our blog, Facebook, and LinkedIn, and you can always check out more episodes of this podcast on iTunes and Spotify. And of course, keep on finding your retirement success.