Transcript:

Intro (00:01):

Do you struggle with what it means to be successful in your retirement? Trust us, you're not alone. Welcome to the Retirement Success in Maine podcast. Here you'll go in depth with guidance point advisors, investment consultants to hear stories about how retirees in Maine are navigating a successful retirement, get insight into the inevitable challenges of aging, and define what a successful retirement looks like.

Ben Smith (00:26):

Welcome everybody to the Retirement Success in Maine podcast. My name is Ben Smith. You can always find us on Apple Podcast, Spotify, also our blog, blog dot guidance point llc.com. If you want to reach out to us, please feel free, benSmith@guidancepointrs.com. But with me as always, as the man who's liked the punchline to my setup, the callback to my long-winded story, the one who always says yes, and to my ridiculous ideas, my co-host Curtis Worcester, I do today. Curtis,

Curtis Worcester (00:57):

I'm doing great, Ben. Doing great. So definitely going to try to keep up with you today. I think this conversation is going to be a really fun one.

Ben Smith (01:03):

Yeah, and I know one thing we hear a lot from retirees and our clients is they're looking for ways to connect with their adult kids, their grandkids, and with new communities that might be moving into, but sometimes we forget that connection isn't just about just showing up, it's about being playful, present and engaged.

Curtis Worcester (01:22):

That's right, Ben. And that's exactly what we're going to talk about in today's episode. We're diving into the world of improv. Yeah, that thing that you may associate with comedy clubs and acting classes, but we're going to dive into improv and discover how its core principles can help retirees build stronger relationships again, especially with their grandchildren.

Ben Smith (01:44):

And joining us is someone who lives at the intersection of storytelling, stagecraft and family life.

Curtis Worcester (01:50):

That's right. Our guest today has spent the last 20 plus years balancing a career in international business development with a deep passion for storytelling and performance. So our guest has performed professional improv across Europe and the United States, and when his kids came along, he shifted to teaching it. So using its powerful principles to work with Fortune 100 companies, Maine's Department of Education at-Risk youth, and everyday people just looking to build trust, confidence, and joy. Our guest is also the author of the debut thriller novel Questions of Iron and Blood, and he lives right here on the coast of Maine where he still surfs and plays hockey, although I'm told the hockey is when his knees allow. So if you would please take a second and just welcome our guest, Chip Brewer to the Retirement Success in Maine Podcast. Chip, thank you so much for coming on our show today,

Chip Brewer (02:44):

Curtis and Ben, thank you so much for having me. I'm absolutely thrilled to be here, and I really appreciate you guys inviting me in.

Ben Smith (02:49):

Likewise. Well, chip, thanks for coming on and we obviously want to start our show and get into improv, but for the audience that maybe doesn't know you, we want to start your personal story. Can you just tell us a little bit about how you discovered Improv first and what was it that drew you in beyond the performance aspect?

Chip Brewer (03:06):

Yeah, it's a great question. So the improv has always been a side gig for me. So I've had a corporate gig. I've worked for management consulting and market research firms internationally for the bulk of my career, about 25 years. And in 1998, my wife and I moved to Amsterdam to help open up an office for a company I was working for called Forrester Research. And there's a really good, in fact, one of the best improv theaters in the world is in Amsterdam. It's called Boom Chicago. And at the time, Seth Myers of Today of Late Night Fame and SNL Fame was one of the actors there. And then more recently, folks like Jason Sudeikis and Brendan Hunt from Ted Lasso both came through Boom, Chicago and Jordan Peele of Key and Peele and a bunch of movies. He's also a boom alum as well. And my 28th birthday, my wife gave me an improv class and she handed me an envelope, which we don't generally give each other envelopes for our birthdays.

(03:58):

I was like, that's weird. And she said before I went to grab it and she kind held onto it and she said, you have to promise not to quit your day job. I thought that's an odd thing to be saying, but, and I took it. I'm like, oh, I'm definitely going to quit my day job. So I took the classes there. There were two levels of classes. They went for multiple weeks, and then I ended up auditioning for and joining another improv trip in Amsterdam called Off Your Head. And so we performed every Sunday night at the Comedy Cafe for a couple of years while we were living there. And then we moved back to Boston. Eventually I auditioned for and joined Improv Boston and got into a couple of shows there. And it's just the thing that I love the most about improv is that it's fundamentally a group activity.

(04:41):

It's a team sport. And I love, I think that when we're on teams as humans, the whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts. And improv is a really tangible way to see that happen. And there's an incredible joy that comes from contributing to the creation of something new and unique that you could never have done on your own. And by the same token, they could not have done without you because you also contribute. Right? So that's just an amazing feeling. It's the same feeling that people have for being in a band that's jamming or playing jazz. It's a very similar kind of a concept. So that's what got me into it.

Ben Smith (05:15):

Love that. And I want to ask a question and just put a pin on improv for one second, but I want to ask a little bit about your novel you wrote. Can you just tell us a little bit about questions of Iron and Blood and what inspired you to write that?

Chip Brewer (05:27):

Yeah, sure. So it's a thriller novel and it's about, it looks at the Boston Marathon bombing. And in my world, there's a conspiracy behind it, and it's the beginning of a trilogy. So the first book takes place mostly in Boston, and then the second and third books about three quarters of the way through the second book, and then there'll be a third one as well. But it continues to become more of a global conflict or an issue than just in Boston. But I had always fancied myself to be a writer. My mental image of me was I'm a writer, but then when I was around 45 or so, I realized I have not written anything that isn't an email or

(06:01):

A proposal.

(06:02):

I haven't written anything creatively really ever. So I realized that as I was getting older, I needed to maybe make better use of my time, and I decided that that was the thing that I had always wanted to be. And so that's why I got into it. I wrote a screenplay with a friend and that got me into the rhythm of writing and gave me the practice of writing. And then when we finished that, I decided, okay, I'm going to try to bite off the elephant here and write a novel, which has always been my goal. So that's how I got into it.

Ben Smith (06:29):

So I need to check that out, chip, just because I mean just obviously living history is like, here's the Boston Marathon, and you just think about, obviously nine 11 is such a national importance of a symbol. And that day of, I'm just thinking about all of New England and Boston Marathon and Patriots Day, everybody's off and we're all watching the marathon and the Red Sox, and that happens and the whole place is shut down. So I just remember vividly that happening and being working, and we all turned indoor TVs to see what, so I want to check that out. That sounds awesome.

Chip Brewer (07:03):

Yeah, we were living in Boston when that happened. I had run the Boston Marathon twice in college, so I had a very personal connection to that event. And we were actually on vacation with the kids in South Carolina when that happened. And I mean, it totally freaked us out. So it just had a big impression on me. And anyway, that was the thing I decided to go with.

Curtis Worcester (07:19):

Yeah, no, that's super interesting. And I think, so I'm going to get us back to improv here for this show, but I think when the other books come out, we're going to come back and we're going to just go through the books together. Okay, that sounds great to me. So obviously we said in the intro there, you've taught improv to everybody here, from executives to students to educators. Just kind of what have you noticed about how different people respond to improv and what makes it such a powerful teaching tool?

Chip Brewer (07:47):

Yeah, it's a great question, Curtis. I mean, a couple of things. First, improv, unlike something like quantum physics, improv is something that everybody can learn how to do. In fact, we all do it every day. We don't have scripts for our days. We don't wake up and check the dailies and see what we're supposed to say at breakfast. You just go and do it. And the same is true in your work life. So we're actually improvising already. But what people don't know is professional improvisers have figured out a few frameworks and rules that make that improvisation process go much more smoothly. It's not a random, even though people think improv is random, it's actually far from it. The ideas might be random, but the structure upon which you put those ideas is not random. And so that structure is what gives it the cohesiveness that makes it interesting to watch.

(08:34):

So first of all, it's easy to understand. And secondly, we're all genetically predisposed as humans to tell stories. I actually think storytelling is one of humanity's greatest strengths because if you think about it in the long term of evolution, stories are how we pass information from one generation to the next or how to share information time. So you think about if you're a grandparent, you actually have 60, 70, 80 years worth of experience and wisdom. And to have to make each subsequent generation figure all that out on their own is super inefficient. But if we can share that knowledge and that expertise, then each subsequent generation stands on the shoulders of the previous. So that actually is, I think, one of the things that makes us unique. And then finally, as I mentioned earlier, improv is a team sport. I think life is a team sport. And the most important thing I teach my students, I say, listen, if you don't remember anything at all from our class today, the one thing I want you to take home is your only job on stage is to make everyone else look good, full stop. So what that means is if you're on stage with five actors and each of those five actors is thinking only about themselves, then I have one person thinking about me. It's just me.

(09:46):

But if I go on stage and I don't think about myself at all, and I worry about Ben and Curtis and Mary and Susie, now everybody has four people worried about them. And I was an English major at Boden, but I know four is better than one. So that's another. And it's hard in life. Life is easier when we do it together and we work.

Ben Smith (10:07):

And Chip, I can just commenting on that too. And to your point about passing on stories, and again, this is kind of the job of our podcast is like here's learned lessons of retirement and kind things that we can make each other better. But also what you just said about your only job is to make everyone else look good. You and I talked to a couple weeks back, and one thing I shared with you was, I'm watching my son play basketball and he watches AAU basketball, and it's five kids that only worried about themselves getting their own shot. They don't really care about them as a team. They all care about, do I look good right now? And you can tell is the ones that come in and they're all functioning well as in teamwork and roles, and they know who the good passers are, who the shooters are, and putting themselves in position to succeed. Those are the ones that win. The ones that come in and just individually try to shine themselves are the ones that don't do well. So again, you can see that corollary all throughout, but I absolutely, I want kind of ask one more kind of a personal bio question. Just ask a little bit about growth story LLC. Can you tell us a little bit about your organization, how you help people tell their story and who you work with?

Chip Brewer (11:14):

So after 25 plus years in the corporate world, I left to start my own company and I'm really trying to bridge the gap between business and storytelling or nonprofits and storytelling because most individuals or companies are really good at talking about what they do. We're a bank, how we do it, we help you with savings and checkings accounts and all these other things, but they're not great at talking about why they do it, and it's the why story. And I'm taking that from Simon Seneca. I did not make up that framework. People buy from me because of why you do it, not because of what or how and why is fundamentally a story. So why do you do something? So I saw that there were tons of people with plenty or more business experience than I have, but couldn't tell a story to save their lives. And there are plenty of better writers and better storytellers than me, but many of them have never set foot in a business. And so I felt like I had a unique position where I could bridge that gap. And so that's why I do it. And so part of it is that I can come in and so I help uncover and tell organization's most important stories. That's it. I can either train you to do it yourself or I can do it for you. Does that make sense?

Ben Smith (12:25):

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Chip Brewer (12:26):

Sorry, one more point. So stories, why are stories important? We're going to talk about this a lot. Your brain actually behaves differently when it hears a story than when it hears information in some other format. A spreadsheet, a PowerPoint deck, even bullet points. So your brain produces, in particular three chemicals when it hears a story that are important. The first is cortisol, which helps with memory formation. The second is oxytocin, which helps with trust and bonding. And the third is dopamine, which helps with engagement and reinforces positive behaviors. So when you hear a story, then you are engaged, empathetic, and more likely to remember what you heard, which is I think what we're all looking for, what we communicate with others. So that's why I found it growth story. It is a little longer of an answer than you probably wanted, Ben, sorry about that.

Curtis Worcester (13:12):

Perfect. No, that's great. I think it's helpful for everybody. Again, we like to just kind of build a foundation with you here and our listeners, I do want to kind dive in here and talking about our show today and kind of using improv to help build connections and retirement. Again, we're taking that kind of grandparent grandchild angle, but I think just in general, so something you had just mentioned, chip, right? You're kind that main principal you work with. Your only job is to make everyone else look good. Okay. So just starting this off here, imagine a grandparent visiting for the weekend. How can that mindset change how they show up for their grandkids and maybe even their adult children too? How can we use that mindset in this setting?

Chip Brewer (13:55):

Yeah, another excellent question. So I think that today, maybe more than ever before, there is a large and growing gap between seniors and their grandchildren, and even for parents and their children of today's age, and that it's because the youngest of us have grown up in a world that is centered around technology in a way that the rest of us did not. So we do to a certain extent live in very different worlds even though we're on the same planet. So given that it can be very hard to find common ground right between, as a 70-year-old person, I don't know how you would find common ground with an 8-year-old, given that 8-year-old spend 90% of their time online or talking about things you'd never heard of, right?

(14:35):

Sure.

(14:35):

So when you're in a situation where you, you're uncomfortable or you don't know what the common ground is, you tend to rely on what your own context about the world to discuss things. So I would suggest that when engaging with grandchildren or even parents with their children, use the interactions you have to learn more about their world and what they care about. So what this means is when you're asking kids questions, tell me, Hey, you mentioned this thing I've never heard of. What is that? Tell me more about it. And so what that does is you're treating the grandchild as an authority, and people love to be given the respect that comes with, Hey, something I don't know, teach me about your world. So first, you're demonstrating interest, which builds trust by asking questions and listening very closely to the responses. Second, you learn something you didn't know before.

(15:27):

So your knowledge is expanding, which is good for you. And third, when you listen to them, it makes them much more likely to listen to you. So one way to think about it is if you just launch into a story about the old days, they're going to switch off. They have no reason to be interested in that. But if you actually start with, tell me about the new days, tell me about your life, and then you actually engage, you do active listening, you don't just listen and then ignore it. You're actually processing what they're saying and asking intelligent questions and follow on questions, then they're much more likely to listen to you when you tell your story. And there's always going to be a way for you in any conversation to go from, Hey, that's pretty cool. You mentioned X in your life. Well, that reminds me of Y in my life when I was your age. We actually, there are a lot of commonalities. They're just harder to find, right? You got to dig a little harder. Does that make sense?

Ben Smith (16:19):

Yeah. Yeah. That ties right to that. Your only job is to make everyone else look good. So by placing that grandchild on that pedestal and you're making them look good, you're more focused on them and not on yourself. And so love kind of how that ties together. One of the other core rules of improv you've shared with me, chip is yes. And so a retiree might be spending time with a five-year-old who wants to play dinosaur astronauts making, I don't even know if that makes any sense.

Chip Brewer (16:47):

Yeah, it

Ben Smith (16:47):

Does. But what does it look like to say yes and in that moment versus shutting it down and how does that build stronger connection?

Chip Brewer (16:56):

Yeah. So when I teach class, one of the first maybe agreement might be the foundational principle of improv, which is literally like, yes is whatever you said, I agree to it and I'm going to add my own piece to it. So now we're equally building the story together.

(17:10):

So I do an exercise early in my classes where I have people say, it's a very simple two line thing. First person says, Hey, let's blank. Like, Hey, let's go to the store. Or Hey, let's have dinner together. And the other person just says, no, you can feel it. Your heart kind of drops a little bit like, Hey, let's go have some fun. No. And then I say, okay, do the same thing, but now say yes and say, let's go to the store. Yes, let's go to the store and that feels better. And then the third and final time, I say, now do yes. And so yes, let's go to the store and let's rob it or yes, and let's buy it. Or it doesn't have to be funny, but now I've added details. So we're building something together. So when someone says no, that's called blocking, and you can block in a million different ways. You can say, yes, I do want to talk about dinosaur astronauts, and first we're going to talk about the stock market. So even though you said yes, and you've actually taken their idea, pushed it to the side, and you want to talk about what you're comfortable with.

(18:08):

So when the first person speaks, that's called an offer. The offer is let's play dinosaur astronauts. In this case, if the second person says yes to that, they say yes. And to your dinosaur astronaut idea, you can now build something together. So you could say, yeah, you want to play dinosaur astronauts. Sure. You know why there were dinosaur astronauts? Because one dinosaur figured out that an asteroid was coming and they realized they had to get off the planet. What happened next? And then the kid adds, oh, they had to build a spaceship. Okay, well they build it out of, and so now you're building this ridiculous story together, but you're equally responsible for it, and now you're into, and then you get to see how the kid's mind works too. So that's how you do it, instead of just saying, I don't know what you're talking about. That's ridiculous. I want to talk about something. I understand you open yourself up to explore a space where you don't know anything about it, but you're doing it together.

Curtis Worcester (19:01):

Yeah, no, that's great. I really like that. Another thing, chip, that I think you talk about quite a bit is active listening and how that's essential. So we see a lot of retirees, they mention how hard it is to connect with teenagers. We were just talking about that there. Or even their adult children who may seem distracted with their own lives or whatever's going on. Perhaps it's the younger generation is being talked at versus being conversed with. And I think there's a conversation there, but how in your eyes can improv techniques just help grandparents or whoever's trying to communicate be better listeners, and how might that help shift relationships?

Chip Brewer (19:40):

So this is maybe the second most important part of improv, which is active listening. So if you two are on stage starting a scene, and I'm off stage and I know I'm going to join the scene at some point,

(19:51):

So I'm paying attention. If I'm in my head thinking, oh, I have something funny I want to say, or I want to make sure we go in this direction, then I'm not listening to what you guys are saying or doing. So when I do come in, I'm probably going to screw it up because I'm now out of alignment with where the conversation has gone. So in real life listening, active listening means not just hearing the words come into your head and not just using your ears, but also using your eyes and even your other senses like touch. If you're holding your grandchild and they're squirming all over the place, maybe they're not interested in the conversation you're having, or maybe they are interested but they can't sit still. So you need to give them the freedom to, so you're listening to their whole body, their whole self, first of all.

(20:33):

Second of all, a conversation requires equal participation by both parties or all parties involved. If there's not equal participation, it's a lecture. So we do an exercise in improv where three actors or four actors are doing a scene, but you can only speak if you're holding a ping pong ball. So what that means is you have the ball, you become very aware of how long you've been holding the ball and how little other people have spoken. So it teaches you to be like, oh, I got to hand the ball off quickly. So actually it teaches you to go much faster in the make it more of a conversation and less of a lecture. I'm lecturing a little bit now, so I apologize for that. No, it's good. You got some pong ball, it's fine.

(21:13):

So what happens is if you're cognizant of how the conversation is progressing, how equal the conversation is, then the other side of the conversation will feel like they're being listened to, right? Because they have a chance to speak or communicate. B, you've clearly heard them and responded that in a way that makes it clear you've heard from them, so they're going to feel supported. And when someone feels supported, that's how you build trust. They know when they speak, you're going to listen, so they're going to be more willing to tell you more important things. And when people trust each other, they can take risks. And risks are where the magic happens when a kid is willing to open up and show you some of who they really are is the magic moment. And then you also get the chance to show them who you really are as a grandparent or a parent. And so that listening is really the first step towards trust. I love that.

Ben Smith (21:59):

And what I like about that chip is again, what we talk about a lot is meeting of life and relationships are one of the biggest pieces of life is in showing people that you value them. And I think one of those things of active listening just is another sign of showing how much you value people. And also I can see where the ping pong experiment could go wrong as someone holds onto that ping pong ball and all the other four people are staring at that ball and going, when are you going to give this thing up? When are you going to get out of this? Because man, you've held this for the next five minutes. But yeah, I want to go deeper, obviously into storytelling a bit. And I know from what you mentioned the point about shared lessons, and I know one thing that kind of gives us value is sharing those lessons like, Hey, I went through something really painful. It's really important that you know, so you don't have to go through that same pain. So I know there's a lot of grandparents that want to pass down family history or values, but at the same point, what you said is we're cognizant of not lecturing. If we start lecturing, then we're not going to get through. So how would you use improv's approach to collaborative storytelling to make those moments more engaging and memorable?

Chip Brewer (23:14):

Yeah, another great question. So I think first off, if you establish a relationship with the grandchild that we just talked about where you've demonstrated, you will listen to them. So they know that if they speak, they'll be listened to, then they will be more likely to listen when you speak, right? It's a reciprocal thing. So if you have set that groundwork, a that makes things a lot easier. One idea might be given that grandparents and grandchildren, I think again, have this major chasm of experience between them. That's a wider chasm than I think any other generation has had to deal with thanks to technology. One idea is, so in improv you have to be a different character in every scene and every scene needs a bunch of characters. So you get good at putting on a character. So one idea might be to have a conversation to say, Hey, you're driving your granddaughter to go get ice cream.

(24:04):

And you're like, they're looking at their phone to figure out how to get to the ice cream place. They have GPS on the phone. So you say, Hey, listen, do you know that back when I was growing up, we didn't have that, right? So how would you get from here to the, how would you figure out how to get to the destination without technology? How would you make that happen? And they may not know how, or they may know. And then because you're making it a conversation, not I'm going to tell you how I did it. You say, how would you do it? Then you're in a conversation and then you can, and so you do these kind of thought exercises. Well, how would you get from Bangor down to New York City without a phone

(24:43):

Or access to a computer? You can do it. People did it for hundreds of years. It's incomprehensible to them. So when in class I'll have people, I'll say, walk around the room and I'm going to shout out some instructions about how you should be walking and just do what I tell you. So people will start milling around the room and I'll say, okay, walk around, you're happy. And people will kind of pick up their pace and their heads will go up and they'll be more kind of high status. And I'll say, okay, walk into the room. You just got fired. And their shoulders slump and they get all sad, and then they kind walk slower. And so what they're doing is they're putting themselves in someone else's shoes. So trying to find ways with your grandchild to put yourself in their shoes. How would I get to New York using the phone? I've never done it before. You show me how to do it. And vice versa is true too. How would you do it without the phone gives each side a chance to learn from each other and make it a conversation less than less of a lecture, if that makes sense.

Ben Smith (25:36):

And I want to add something you just said, chip, and it goes back it slightly off topic to what you were saying, but you're talking about the chasm of experience between grandparents and grandchildren being wide, and all of a sudden that just kind of dawned on me too, is like, well, it's probably the widest it's ever been, right? Because you have adult children that are having children later in life than they ever have been, right? And you have this generation right now, the boomer generation that's living longer than maybe other senior generations have been living. So I think you start kind of widening this out and this becomes more and more pervasive problems versus, hey, every 20 years we have new generations coming along and there's less gap that's happening in terms of knowledge expansion. So just wanted to bring that out.

Chip Brewer (26:23):

And so when you think about it, even though the generations have a huge gap between them, we're all still people and we're all fundamentally trying to solve for the same problems. We just have different tools with which we solve them. So us growing up, we had a different set of tools than the kids do today. So you can do situational things like, Hey, when I was eight, I saw a friend being bullied by a couple of fifth graders on the playground. How would you handle that? How would you handle that today? I can tell you how I handled it then, and maybe you didn't handle it well, because there's always going to be bullies. There's always going to be failures, there's always going to be the things that we're all dealing with. That's where you can find those commonalities, I think.

Curtis Worcester (27:03):

Love it. That's great. I'm just trying to think where I can find one of those big blue maps so I can drive around. I remember sitting in the backseat of the car with the right each page.

Chip Brewer (27:12):

The ga?

Curtis Worcester (27:12):

Yeah, the

Chip Brewer (27:13):

Ter.

Curtis Worcester (27:14):

Oh man.

Chip Brewer (27:15):

We still have a main atlas downstairs. I love that.

Curtis Worcester (27:17):

Love that. Yeah, I rely on GPS way too much. You just exposed that in my head that while you were talking, I was thinking, I was like, yeah, I'd be done for if I had to do that,

Chip Brewer (27:25):

That I used to go to aaa. I used to go to aaa, I would travel for work and I would get out a bunch of maps and I would have to physically highlight the route I was going to take and then try not to wreck the car. Yeah, right. We're driving down road next. You

Ben Smith (27:37):

Distracted driving.

Chip Brewer (27:38):

I was definitely get frustrated. And when we lived in Amsterdam, I was selling to companies in Germany. So I would be driving around Germany and I don't speak German and and so you make a mistake and then you're definitely off the grid. There's no dot on the paper map to get you back where you

Curtis Worcester (27:54):

Does it recalculate for you when you miss the exit. It does not. I love that. Exactly. So Chip, I want to keep going here. I know something we talk about or something that you say is everyone is always on stage. So I just want to play out a scenario. I think for people listening. So let's say a retiree or grandparent, you're at a family barbecue and everything's just starting to feel chaotic and disjointed as family barbecues probably go. So if this person starts thinking like a performer, take that mindset, I'm always on stage. How can that help them maybe bring some cohesion to the moment with that kind of performer mindset?

Chip Brewer (28:36):

So a couple of things. So I do an exercise. So in improv there are no props. You might have chairs or boxes, but that's it. You don't really have any other, you have to mime everything else. So I do an exercise with a class where I'll say, I'm going to just mime something, and then you tell me if I did anything wrong. And I'll go into a kitchen and I'll get a cup out of the cabinet and I'll put some water in it, and then I'll place it down on an imaginary coffee table. I'll go get a second cup, and then I will walk through where I put the imaginary coffee table and people are always like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm like, what's the matter? They go, we just walked through the table. I'm like, okay, but you realize there's no table there, right? There's no physical table. But that's what I mean by you're always on stage. All the details matter. People know that you all, that's where the table's supposed to be, and you just walked right through it as if it didn't exist. You just lied to us. And so that lets people understand in a very tangible way that you are always on stage, you are always being watched all the time. And I don't mean that in a bad way.

(29:32):

The second thing we teach related to that is in improv, the audience is part of the show. They're a critical part of the show as much as any performer. Whereas in a standup, the audience is not part of the show. They're there to laugh, but it's kind of more of a head-to-head, right? I paid my money, make me laugh, funny guy. And improv the audience is part of the show. So the other rule is treat the audience well. You also want to make the audience look good.

(29:56):

So those two things together will help you manage this kind of chaotic and disjointed environment. So given that, remember that they're watching you, right? Kids are really good at paying attention because that's how they navigate the world, because they don't have all the knowledge. So they have to suck up information. So recognize you're being watched. Also recognize that not every actor is in the spotlight the whole time they're on the stage. So at a family barbecue, when it's chaotic and disjointed, it's just not your time. Maybe if you're not comfortable with that environment, just let other people be the center of attention for a time and try and find moments. If you're more comfortable or maybe off to the side or going in for the house to get another glass of lemonade or a beer, that's a time to have the interactions with people and not try and stop what the others are doing and make it less chaotic and not impose yourself on that, but recognize that, Hey, listen, it's just not my time to be part of that.

(30:48):

So on stage, this would work if a scene were happening in, if somebody mentioned they were doing a scene in an art museum, I might run on stage and just be a picture on the wall. I won't move. I'll just be one of the paintings on the wall. Or if they're in a western, I might just roll across the stage like a tumbleweed I'm adding to the scene. That's my role. I don't have any speaking lines. I'm only there for three seconds. But that detail is what makes the scene better. Sometimes your role is to be in the background and it's part, I think for folks that want to interact, to have the patience to be like, you know what? This isn't the time to have a deep conversation about World War II with my granddaughter. There's a better time for that. I love that understanding that you're part of, you're a small piece of a larger performance that's going on, I think is helpful. Does that make sense? Super helpful.

Ben Smith (31:33):

Yeah, it does. And I'll just kind add in there too, chip, as I think one thing that you're kind of saying is this, going back to that first principle of your only job is to make everyone else look good, is you could see where, no, I want to participate so bad and I want to jump into Susie's telling her story of high school graduation and how she was the salutorian and how she did it. And I want to share my experience about how I did in high school, and I want to jump in, but again, making them look good as part of this too. And sometimes being in the background and supporting, and you can tell your story later. But again, kind of knowing kind of role and when and why I think is really important. So I think was a good highlight there.

Chip Brewer (32:15):

And why do you want to jump in and tell your story? Is it for you or are you telling it because it's going to help them? So understanding your own motivations helps too. Am I doing it, I want to scratch my own itch, or does this, my version of the story actually impart something to them that will be helpful?

Ben Smith (32:28):

Exactly.

Chip Brewer (32:29):

Yeah.

Ben Smith (32:30):

So I know this is kind of a through thread too, is one challenge that some retirees still face is, and this kind of speaks to that, is that there's feeling that they don't have as much relevance with younger generations. And maybe I'm having to jump into conversations to show that I'm relevant still. Hey, I'm over here guys, I'm relevant. So can you talk about a little bit more of that mindset of making others look good, treating the audience well, how that shifts the sense of purpose in a family setting,

Chip Brewer (33:00):

Making others look good and treating the audience well, I think are both examples of inclusion. You're trying to include people as opposed to excluding. And inclusion means more than just participating in the same activity at the same time, like a singer and an audience. They're both participating, but in very different ways in improv because the audience, all the actors and the audience are part of the show. You're all equal partners building something together. But in improv, no one is in charge, but everyone is responsible. So I'll say it again, no one's in charge of a scene, no one's directing who's going to do what, or there is no director, but everyone is responsible for the success of that scene. So in an extreme case where you literally cannot find a single thing in common with a grandchild, perhaps you were an ROTC person and you had a very strict and rigid life and you like things orderly, and that's how you do it, and your grandchild is maybe super creative, they might be goth, literally the music is different, the books are different.

(33:57):

Then I would suggest invest time and energy into learning more about them because you're the one with the wisdom and you're more likely to be the one to take that they're unlikely to take that investment in you because they're just young. So if you show yourself investing, help me understand your music better, help me understand your philosophy on life, whatever it might be, then that will turn into a conversation. And in that conversation, you will then have opportunities to share your own wisdom if you treat them like equals in the relationship, even though you're 68 and they're eight, but they are equal in the relationship with you to a certain extent, you may know more and have done more than them, but relationships are built on sharing time and information together. And I also believe that what you want to be doing, if you want to take a step back, one of the things you're doing when you spend time with family and grandchildren is because you want to build a story together with them.

(34:51):

You want them to be part of your story and you want to be part of their story. And I think at the core of every story that's ever been written or created, the core of that is a relationship between a husband and wife, between the moon and the stars, between a rock and a river. It doesn't matter what the two entities are, but the relationship is the key thing. And relationships, the currency of relationships is time and attention. So if you invest the time, provide authentic attention, then that relationship will get built and there'll be opportunities to bridge that gap.

Curtis Worcester (35:20):

That's great. That's great. So I want to kind of take everything we've talked about. We have our astronaut dinosaurs, was it, we have some improv techniques and tips, and I just want to paint another picture again for someone who may be listening, just trying to figure how they can relate and kind of put all this together. So again, we know improv is often collaborative, unscripted. So let's say I'm a retiree or grandparent and my grandchild is going to spend the weekend with me this summer. How the heck can I use all of these improv principles to make this a fun experience for them, but also for me, it is collaborative. I think we've talked about that leading up to this. So how can we do it? What are we starting off with?

Chip Brewer (36:05):

So I think you need to start off with a flexible mindset. So I think somebody said famously, no strategy survives contact with the enemy. As soon as you get on the ground, your plans are out the window. So you can pretty much expect it's good to have a structure for your weekend. It's good to know I want to go play mini golf. I want to go take 'em for ice cream, go to whatever, go see music. But you know that the day's not going to go the way you think it's going to. So you should not expect things to go the way you expect them to. You should expect them to not. And so be comfortable going off script. And since no one's in charge and everyone's responsible, you can then when things do go a different direction, if they're not interested or the thing you're doing turns out to be not that much fun, you need to demonstrate that their voice, their interests, their needs are equally important to yours. So they need to be part of that kind of conversation about how the day's going to play out or the weekend.

(36:57):

And I think it's important to be comfortable admitting when the activity you're doing isn't working. So technically there are no mistakes in improv. You definitely can say things on stage that don't make sense when you say them, that literally popped out of your mouth. So you could be doing a scene about race car drivers, and then all of a sudden you're talking about a dinosaur and it has no context for the rest of the scene. And this is where taking care of each other comes in. The other actors will figure out a way to justify your choice of a dinosaur at the racetrack so that in the end, it looks like you made a brilliant choice, but it was actually a random unexpected choice, but everyone else made it look good. So there are no mistakes. There are only opportunities. So when something doesn't go well, that's an opportunity for you to roll with it and do a yes and together for the situation.

(37:41):

So for example, if you're going to take your granddaughter to playing miniature golf and a couple holes in, you realize she's not digging it right? She's bored or she's frustrated, or she's not into it, you have an option. You can either force her to keep playing, right, play by the rules, and we paid our eight bucks, we're going to do this goddamn thing. Or you could completely quit it. You say, listen, this doesn't seem to be working. Let's go do something else entirely, right? It's just write it off and move on. Or you could say, listen, are you frustrated? Do you want to learn how to do it better? I can help you with that. So you could become a teacher, or you could say, looks like you're not having that much fun. Do you want to make up our own rules for how to play this game? So maybe you take alternate shots or maybe she hits your ball and you hit her ball every other hole, find something with their input, what would make it fun for you? And then you build it together. So being flexible, being willing to say yes, and when things aren't, well, admit a mistake and turn that mistake into an opportunity as best you can. I think those are the ways you can avoid all the awkward moments that come up when you're not sure what to do.

Ben Smith (38:46):

So I'm going to go very specific then into those rules because I think you, you're kind of teeing up my next question or thought here. Obviously, I think obviously when I'm trying to do new things, there's inevitably things that don't work or don't go right, and maybe I say something that unintentionally embarrasses somebody. I go, oh, this grandchild and her friend Kelsey, who are on the basketball team together, they're such a great pair and they're great, and Oh, I didn't realize that my granddaughter actually hates Kelsey. They're like bitter enemies, and I can't believe that you told everybody that we were a great team. What were you doing? So talk a little bit about how improv's rules help us. You said make an opportunity here, but help us recover and reengage gracefully. I could see where, again, trust maybe gets eroded quickly too by saying the wrong thing and they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I thought we were on a good level and you just really damaged our relationship by saying that.

Chip Brewer (39:48):

Yeah. So I think the first thing to do, and this isn't necessarily an improv thing, but I think being gracefully admitting when you may have made a mistake goes a long way. Like saying, I'm sorry. Honestly, being like, I'm really sorry about that. I had no idea you guys were enemies, right? I didn't mean to do it. I apologize. You don't need to justify it. You just need to say I'm sorry. Right? I'm sorry. It goes a long way. That's just a lifestyle. But in improv, as I said before, there are no mistakes. Those mistakes are opportunities. Those are often actually the very best moments in a show when someone does something that seems awkward or bizarre, and then everyone else takes care of you and you turn it into the best moment in the whole show.

(40:25):

So part of it means accepting people for being the flawed creatures that we are. I think when you are willing to apologize and say, oh, listen, I think I totally messed that up. My intentions were good, but the outcome was bad, so I really apologize for that. You're also leading by example because what you're showing is you're saying, even my grandparents who are sometimes scary figures for kids, they're like, they don't see 'em that often, maybe, and they're older and it's just hard to connect with them. So when they're apologizing, that is leading by example. That's setting the stage for how you want to interact going forward. And again, it builds that trust. It shows you've listened to them, I listened to you, you're not happy about this thing I did, and I'm going to make it right. I'm going to apologize and I'm going to make it right as best I can. And that again, builds that trust and shows that you're supporting them and that you're taking care of them as an equal partner in the relationship. We're all flawed in perfect beings, and improv embraces that and says, let's take our flaws and turn them into wins and opportunities.

Curtis Worcester (41:24):

Yeah, that's fantastic. So I want to dive into something Chip that you've brought up a couple times here that really stuck out to us, and nobody is in charge, but everyone's responsible. So for us, that's just a profound way to kind of view family dynamics here. So can we just maybe go back to whether it's the barbecue or even we see a lot right now, multi-generational houses, we have people taking care of their parents while they may also have their own kids in the house still. So not just two generations, sometimes we got three here. Can you just kind of share what this looks like and how can we use it, I guess, in these situations where there's a lot of mixed generations going on?

Chip Brewer (42:06):

Yeah. Yeah, it's totally true. That happens in lots of families. I used to work in India and spend a bunch of time there, and most of their families are multi-generational, right? They'll have cousins and uncles, grandparents, great-grandparents, all living in the same apartment building or complex. So if you think about the family as an improv troupe, there's a bunch of us who're all actors, we're all putting on this show together tonight. We're coming to the family barbecue, and things need to happen. So there are people who are in reality in charge. The eight-year old can't just take the car and drive down to the store. There are rules and people are literally in charge. However, at another level, you're all equal members of this troop that's putting on this show called the Family Barbecue tonight. And being part of the team means accepting different roles at different times in the scene.

(42:53):

So when maybe the parents are cooking or cleaning, that's a good opportunity for a grandparent to get together with a grandchild and spend some more time together. Or maybe you and the grandchild can set the table together or set out the meats or whatever needs to be done. So look for ways, if you think about the barbecue itself as a team activity that changes the dynamic. You don't think about it, we're having a barbecue and things will happen for me that result in me getting food and seeing family. If you take a proactive role in that, right? You're equally responsible for everyone else looking good. So how can I help the barbecue? Is anyone talking to grandma? She's been over in the corner for a while. Maybe I should go talk to her, right? If I'm an 8-year-old and vice versa, no one's talking to Janie, so maybe I'll take this time to interact. So it's about thinking about yourself as part of a team and instead of, I'm a person in this family. Does that make sense? It

Curtis Worcester (43:45):

Does. Yeah. No, that makes perfect sense.

Ben Smith (43:49):

And Chip, I want to kind of keep going on this. Obviously you've given a lot of structure to what improv is and how we look at each other and how we think about each other. But I could see where, okay, I'm thinking about all these prompts and these things I could do, but again, I'm intrigued, but maybe I'm a little intimidated by the idea of just trying this. And I know you said right at the top, everybody can do this. Nobody's excluded from this activity. But if I'm going to start somewhere, is there a simple game, a prompt, a mindset, something that I can use today to start building these better relationships?

Chip Brewer (44:23):

Yeah, absolutely. So I'll give you three. So there's a game called Word at a Time story. And this is good for either people or 200 people. And so let's say you have the family sitting around the table, dinner's over, but you're still hanging around where of the time story is where each person around the table, you go in order clockwise or counterclockwise, each person contributes a word to a story that you're going to build together. So it might be like once upon time there was a guy named Tom, and one day Tom went to the store, whatever comes out. And the key to this is you can't prompt anyone. You can't be like, say Kat. Kat will be funny. You got to let people come up with their own words, and you want to do it quickly. So you want to do it as fast as

(45:05):

Possible. Sure.

(45:06):

Because mistakes are part of saying things that don't make sense are what's fun. So once upon a time, there was a guy named Tom, Tom bought a dinosaur. You're like, oh, that's weird, but you keep going, right? The dinosaur's name was Fred, and Fred liked to eat dog biscuits. Those things that seem weird because the velocity of the exercise makes it so that you're going to say stuff that is kind of random,

Curtis Worcester (45:30):

Right? Because you're literally saying whatever pops in your head,

Chip Brewer (45:33):

And then if it doesn't make any sense, you just stop and start a new one. So you're like, okay, that one, and we'll just wipe the slate clean, start a new story on the next one. So that's really fun.

Ben Smith (45:41):

And just, I think this one part that's intriguing me is that, okay, so you start your story and you're going one word at a time around. Yeah. How do you end, I guess is my question, because I can see where the fun level starts declining. This is just taking way too long, and it's not really going anywhere and it's not really wrapping up. How do you go from an improv mindset? How do you know that we're trying to wrap things up?

Chip Brewer (46:05):

So a couple things. First of all, if you know that things aren't wrapping up effectively, that demonstrates that you already know how a story should sound. So without any training, you already know this is going on forever. It's not really going anywhere. So you can just stop and be like, all right, this isn't going anywhere. We'll just start a new story. Because what could happen, he went to the store and then he went home, and then he went to bed, and then he got up. Now it's just this endless sequence of activity. You're like, okay, let's stop that.

Curtis Worcester (46:31):

One person's just saying, and every time it's their turn.

Chip Brewer (46:33):

Exactly

Curtis Worcester (46:34):

Right.

Chip Brewer (46:34):

So the other part of it is when you've hit in improv and in acting, it's called beats or stories have beats things that happen that are notable. And so you'll know when you get a big laugh because of something that was said, that might be the end of that story. And then you want to stop it there. You don't want to oversell it. You don't want to keep going after the big laugh and you start a new one. So you just kind of know, because already a storyteller and the game is super flexible, so you can just stop anytime you want and start a new one. And there's no mistake. So if someone says a word that Tom went to the anthrax and you're like, all right, well that doesn't make any sense. We'll start a new story with Mary, right? And then off you go, there's no downside. So that's one game. Another game is the alphabet game where each person has to say a sentence in the story that starts with the next letter of the alphabet. So you'd go like after dinner, Tom went upstairs before he went to bed, Tom brushed his teeth. Couldn't do that. There wasn't any toothpaste downstairs. He went to look for it. And it always creates, it's fun when you get to the Qs and the Z's of the world.

(47:41):

So it's like word at a time, but it's a full sentence, and each sentence has to start the next letter of the alphabet. So that's kind of a fun

Ben Smith (47:46):

Like that.

Chip Brewer (47:47):

And then the last one is a game called excuses, where somebody will throw out and you can rotate who the prompter is, but you throw out like, Hey, you guys were all late for work today. Why was that? And then each person gets to provide a different excuse until you run out of excuses, right? So it's like I was late because my car died. I was late because the dog ate my homework. I was late because I got caught in the space shuttle. And it can be increasingly more outlandish as you go around and when you run out of stuff, you just start a new prompt. Okay, why did you fail your test? And then everybody gets to talk about the excuses about why they failed their test. So it's like you're not really telling a story so much, but you're creating this tableau of reasons why something didn't happen, which is kind of fun.

Curtis Worcester (48:24):

Nice.

Chip Brewer (48:24):

Nice. All right,

Curtis Worcester (48:25):

Love that. We got it. Everyone listening. We got the three games. There you go. Take them to the family Barbecue. You don't need

Chip Brewer (48:32):

Anyt need, you don't need any prompts, toys, pencils. It's all word games, so it's really easy to do anywhere in the car, at the barbecue,

Curtis Worcester (48:39):

Anywhere on the boat. Road trip game. That's a good one. Yeah, it's good. Road trip. Yep. I like it. Well Chip, so I do have one kind of final question for you. It's a little bit off topic. Again, your answer may bring it back on topic, but we want to ask a question directly to you. So obviously the name of our show, retirement Success in Maine podcast, we're all about helping people find their retirement success or define it. So I have to ask you, chip, what does that look like for you? How are you going to find your personal retirement success?

Chip Brewer (49:12):

Yeah, so if you're asking what does success look like for me in retirement, I would say I can boil out that to two things. So number one, if I could write and teach full time, that would be how I would love to volunteer also. But in terms of my day is going to be spent writing and teaching other people how to be better storytellers. And the other thing which might even be more important is I think the only commodity that we have is time that matters. And we have precious little control over that as it is, but we do have some, and you can choose how you spend your time and whom you spend it with. And so I choose to spend it with family and friends and not with people who are negative or are looking to tear other people down. I feel like life is hard enough. Let's make it easier for each other. So for me, writing and teaching and then spending time with the people that I care about the most.

Ben Smith (50:04):

Love that. Fantastic. Yeah, that's a great answer, chip. Yeah, thanks for coming on our show again. I know we personally learned a lot from you today and just kind of also from a human to human relationship piece of just having more ways to just better our relationships and our lives, and I think that's a takeaway. Hopefully all you out in the audience got as well. But Chip, really appreciate coming on our show and just sharing your expertise with us today. It was really fun.

Chip Brewer (50:30):

Of course, Ben and Curtis, thank you again so much for having me. It's been a super fun conversation to have. I love what you guys are doing. I think it's really important to, especially as we're all living longer and longer, thankfully, to figure out ways to make sure that we make that time meaningful, right? So thank you guys for that.

Ben Smith (50:43):

Alright, appreciate Chip, take care. Cheers.

Curtis Worcester (50:45):

So Ben, that was probably one of the more fun and kind of lighthearted conversations we've had on this show in a while. I think it was very informative and very useful, but going at it in a different way with improv I think was really fun with Chip.

Ben Smith (50:59):

And I think it goes right to our conversation we had with Amy k, I think it was episode 37 or so, just getting better relationships and whether it be family or friends or spouse, having more ways to communicate in a way that gets you back on track and introduces fun. Laughter, trust. Again, I know he talked about being fully present and there's something in here I think for every retiree who wanted more connection to life, we are going to link Chip's pieces, his website to his book, questions of Iron and Blood. We'll link to Amazon Grow Story LLC. So say you are in one of those positions of you have a business that want to tell their why story or even just read a little bit more about Chip or even your own story by the way, he does do some of those as well. He's just a fun guy to be around, so we encourage you to go reach out to him and see if there's a collaboration to have with Chip.

Curtis Worcester (51:55):

Yeah, absolutely. And again, Ben, all those links and everything will be on our blog, which again is blog guidance point llc.com/ 1 1 7. This is episode 117. We're climbing up here climbing, so go check out. We'll link everything there. Again, huge thank you to Chip Brewer for coming on the show and teaching us a little bit about improv and how we can use it everywhere with everyone. So thank you again to Chip, thank you for everyone tuning in and we'll catch you next time.

Outro (52:28):

Ladies and gentlemen, you've just listened to an information filled episode of the Retirement Success in Maine podcast. While this show is about finding more ways to improve your retirement happiness guidance point, advisor's mission is to help our clients create a fulfilling retirement. We do financial planning so that people can enjoy retirement and align their monetary resources to their goals. If you are wondering about your own personal success, we invite you to reach out to us to schedule a 45 minute listening session. Our advisors will have a conversation with you about your goals, your frustrations, and your problems. Make sure you check out guidance point advisors on our blog, Facebook and LinkedIn, and you can always check out more episodes of this podcast on iTunes and Spotify and of course, keep on finding your retirement success.