The Retirement Success in Maine Podcast Ep 063: Practicing Gratitude in the Face of Adversity

 

 

Transcript:

Ben Smith:

Welcome everybody to The Retirement Success in Maine podcast. My name is Ben Smith, and I'm joined by my cohost, the Xander Bogaerts to my J. D. Martinez, Curtis Worcester. How you doing today, Curtis?

Curtis Worcester:

I'm doing well, Ben. Doing well. We're getting close to opening day here. So I think that's an appropriate shout out there. So we're getting there.

Ben Smith:

We are Red Sox nation, right?

Curtis Worcester:

That's right.

Ben Smith:

So you got to talk Red Sox and we have a big acquisition with Trevor Story.

Curtis Worcester:

That's right.

Ben Smith:

We're going to have a little uphill climb I think with the ALEs, the Yankees, and the Rays, and the Blue Jays. It's going to would be a tough one, but again, always good to root, root, root for the home team.

Curtis Worcester:

That's right.

Ben Smith:

We, of course. We've gone through winter, and Maine winters, of course, are tough, but I think one of the core features of Mainers is I think we're very grateful for times especially when we get to spring, right? You get through all the hard stuff, all the cold, all the snow, and I think the hope eternal comes in spring a little bit here. I used the word gratitude, and the word gratitude is derived from the Latin word gratio, which means grace, graciousness or gratefulness, depending on the context, and in some ways, gratitude encompasses all of these meanings.

Ben Smith:

It's actually a thankful appreciation for what an individual receives, whether tangible or intangible. With gratitude, people acknowledge the goodness in their lives. In the process, they usually recognize that the source of that goodness lies at least partially outside themselves. As a result, being grateful also helps people connect to something larger than themselves as individuals, whether to other people, nature or higher power.

Ben Smith:

In a positive psychology research, gratitude is strongly and consistently associated with greater happiness, and gratitude also helps people feel more positive emotions, relish good experiences, improve their health, deal with adversity and build strong relationships.

Ben Smith:

Now as a podcast, this has been our core purpose here, right?

Curtis Worcester:

Sure.

Ben Smith:

It is, "Hey, we have retirement and we're helping people get to retirement," and I think we all have this in our heads about, "Well, we got to get there," but we haven't really done a whole lot of this legwork about what does it mean to be there. Once we've arrived, this is I think a key part we want to talk about, we've arrived here, well, now what? I think this whole concept of gratitude in being appreciative for what we have and where we are in our lives and our situations and what surrounds us is really important as a theme.

Ben Smith:

We've not talked about this yet. We've done 60 some odd shows. This is something that I think we see enough, especially the very hard nose that we said the main work ethic where we just go, go, go, and we have to put food on that table and we have to get career success. Then what?

Ben Smith:

So gratitude is a way for people to appreciate what they have instead of always reaching for something new in the hopes they'll make them happier or thinking they can't feel satisfied until every physical and material need is met, right?

Ben Smith:

So again, that's this whole mindset change of, "Hey, we're probably or we're always in that rat race of trying to keep going, going, going, and until I meet everything I need to meet, I'm not happy. I'm not satisfied."

Ben Smith:

So this concept of gratitude, helping people refocus on what they have instead of what they lack. Although it may feel contrived at first, this mental estate grows stronger with use and practice. So that's, I think, a lot of what we want to talk about today was, again, from our client perspective and the work we do with people, is sometimes that refocus maybe never happens, but having this practice of gratitude, we think could help so many more people, whether people we work with, whether our family relationships, and we said, "This is a show, man, I think we really have to do so." So we're really excited about this one.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah. I agree, Ben. Our next guest is a husband, father, and successful salesman who has worked in the financial services industry for nearly 20 years. This Cincinnati native is also living with kidney cancer. Matt was first diagnosed in 2015, but after one of his kidneys was removed, doctors told him he was cancer-free. Then in late 2018, the cancer returned and the biopsy tumor was malignant.

Curtis Worcester:

Our guest today discusses why and how he has chosen to view his cancer as a blessing. Since he started a blog to track his journey and inspire others, his disease has taught him that how you respond to situations you face defines who you are. So with that, please welcome Matt Moran to The Retirement Success in Maine podcast. Matt, thank you so much for coming on our show today.

Matt Moran:

I'm so grateful to be here, guys. As you mentioned, I've got my own show, but it's really exciting to be a guest on your show. Thanks so much.

Ben Smith:

Yeah. Matt, just working with you over the years, I've just so much appreciate your attitude and how you approach life every day in the conversations we've had, and it leads to these core values that we talked about in the introduction today. So we're really excited about learning about gratitude and how you approach it, but also even how your family has embraced that, and how that is a core value that you have throughout your entirety of your family and your relationships and how you experience life because I think that's something where all of us can learn something a little bit more from.

Ben Smith:

You have a really awesome show, as you mentioned, called With Gratitude, Matt, which is also a podcast, and that's where we connect even more on like, "Hey, I have a podcast." "Well, I do, too," and talking about the lessons you learn and how putting yourself out there is a scary thing and talking through this.

Ben Smith:

You also do an interview format for the most part about talking back and forth and in the conversation about finding those shared experiences and finding those shared lessons, but before we go there because there's a lot of things we want to talk about gratitude, it's always helpful to hear a little bit about your biography, your story, your why. So love to hear a little bit about your childhood, where you grew up and your career.

Matt Moran:

Absolutely. No. I grew up in Cincinnati, Ohio, and most of my family still lives there. I'm the middle child of five. I have two brothers, two sisters. My parents, Mary Beth and Bill Moran, still living today, live in Cincinnati. We grew up in a wonderful home. It was a loving home and very, very much faith-based. My parents practiced and supported us in our effort to be raised in the Catholic faith. That's important to me today, and it's a foundational component of my spiritual life, but I had a very blessed childhood.

Matt Moran:

I often say, "The apple does not fall far from the tree." I think as I think about some of the resistance that I put on how my parents were raising me, I truly am grateful for what they did for me. It didn't always seem right to me at the time. Looking back on it as a 53 year old man, I can say, "Wow! They did a pretty cool job on not just me," but I have some remarkable brothers and sisters as well.

Ben Smith:

I think that's a lesson, too, especially when you experience your own kids and you go there. In the moment, there isn't a right answer at times, right? I feel like we should do it this way, but you could do it three other ways, and you can see why also from when you experience your brothers and sisters, sometimes the parenting is different per child, which can also lead to some animosity, but you can experience from the parenting perspective is in the moment you're just doing what you think is best for the child and try to develop them as a healthy, independent person. So I get what you're saying there. That's a really great statement with perspective.

Curtis Worcester:

So Matt, obviously, as we read off in our intro there, you have experienced an unexpected illness in your life being kidney cancer. So as we sit here recording in the first few days of April, so obviously March was kidney cancer awareness month, bringing attention to the 68,000 new kidney cancer cases and the 14,000 deaths that will hit the United States alone this year, making kidney cancer the six most common cancer among men. So I want to ask, can you just tell us more about your cancer journey starting with how it presented itself, the diagnosis, and then where you are today?

Matt Moran:

Absolutely. So yeah, I was diagnosed with kidney cancer in 2015, and just one note on that, things happen for a reason, and this is just my perception as in, and I was at the time, shortly there before, I was living with my wife and two girls in Chicago, and we had the opportunity of relocating back to Buffalo, New York for a career opportunity. I worked for Principal Global Investors and had the opportunity to relocate. It was a family decision.

Matt Moran:

Quite frankly, there was a lot of anxiety around that move because I was moving from Chicago to Buffalo. In fact, funny story about that. I told my wife probably three or four years earlier than this that, I'll go anywhere you want to go, but I'll never move to Buffalo, New York." I just don't see myself moving to Buffalo, New York," and funny how things happen, and we fought on things, prayed on things, and made the most sense for us to raise our girls in Buffalo, New York.

Matt Moran:

So anyhow, Principal gives us the opportunity to come back here and I was grateful, but with that, guys, there was anxiety. In October of 2015, I was on a way out of town on a trip. I was on my way. I was going to leave for the airport and I went to the bathroom before I left a meeting I was at, and I urinated in the bathroom and my blood was color of cranberry juice. At that time, I wasn't that concerned other than the fact that I knew something was up, and I felt fine. So I called my brother-in-law, who's an ER doctor back here in Buffalo, and he wasn't that concerned. He thought maybe a urinary tract infection.

Matt Moran:

Funny how he said, "But if you're concerned, stop by an urgent care center and they can get things checked out," and he knew some of the people there. So I did. So I got in about 11:00 at night. We weren't even in the house that we live in today. We were in a rental place in Buffalo because the house that we were going to move into wasn't quite ready. So we're in temporary housing, and I didn't even call my wife. I just went directly to the Mac Center and they did some tests and they found a tumor in my kidney, basically the size of the kidney, and they told me, at that point they said, "It's likely cancer, and you're not going to anywhere for a while."

Matt Moran:

Basically, they transferred me to the hospital. I spent seven days in the hospital. A couple days later, they removed my kidney. At that time, guys, they told me I was cancer-free, though, because it was contained to the kidney. I mean, surgery was successful, but I guess the reason I bring up the move to Buffalo that was really important, all of my anxiety about the move back to Buffalo was gone immediately because I had my brother-in-law there to support me. We had at the time a three-year-old and a four-year-old, and my mother-in-law was able to go over and care for them like, "Wow." My wife came over and was with me and we had all the support that we needed.

Matt Moran:

It was just very evident to me at that point that we were right where we needed to be, and that's where we were. Lived for three year without any issues. Then in 2018 through biopsy, they found it again, and that's when things really changed. Ironically enough, I was out of town when that happened as well. I was at a business trip. So I had to call Mary and call my parents and let them know what took place.

Matt Moran:

So that's how it presented, and I would say this. 2015 when it first happened, it didn't really foundationally changed me, but in '18, I'm a different person today than I was prior, and for that, I'm grateful.

Ben Smith:

Matt, I know that's really tough to talk about, I'm sure, from an experience perspective, but I thank you so much.

Matt Moran:

It is. I kept it all together there.

Ben Smith:

You did. You did really well because I don't think I could have done that well. Then to then to go, "Hey, this is where you are," to then go, "Hey, I've now changed and I'm now refocusing with of an uplifting message about positivity," and from your podcast message was using positivity and awareness, awesomeness to inspire others to live life to the fullest, to help others that are fighting kidney cancer.

Ben Smith:

So we talked about your podcast called With Gratitude, Matt. So obviously, if you're listening to us right now, check that out, right? Go into Apple podcasts, Spotify, all the popular podcasts and search With Gratitude, Matt, and you'll find it there. Give that a follow. If you would just maybe pause our show right now, go over there, search that, and hit follow because there's some really awesome episodes and work that Matt's doing there. So I want you to go over there right now and do that. So hit pause, come back.

Ben Smith:

So now, unpause. So With Gratitude, Matt, you continue to discuss with others how to find the courage and how to help others find the courage to be grateful. So can you tell us about how your cancer journey inspired you to start this show and then how it's going?

Matt Moran:

Absolutely. So when you are first diagnosed with cancer, I'll tell you this, I mean, it's not news that you're anticipating, it's not news that you're grateful for. There's a lot of sleepless nights early on. So right, wrong or indifferent, what I found myself doing is I would go to YouTube videos, Goldcast videos, and I would just search for inspirational stories and watch them. Sometimes I'd watch them for hours. There's a lot of remarkable stuff out on YouTube, and I came across some pretty powerful messages.

Matt Moran:

The one common ground for any cancer patient that at one time was able to celebrate being disease-free and cancer-free, they all had abundance of gratitude. I had this weird notion of saying, "Well, why would I wait until I'm disease-free to practice gratitude? Why wouldn't I just find what's beautiful in my life today?" and I started doing that, and that was when I started to really impact my mindset, how my mind was thinking.

Matt Moran:

Shortly thereafter or actually right around the same time, I was also introduced by a friend of mine to Dr. Roy Vongtama, and I know I talked to you guys about Roy before, but he was inspirational. Dr. Roy Vongtama is a radiation oncologist. I didn't know him before he's best friends with one of my dearest friends here in Buffalo, Greg. Greg just called me up and he said, "Hey, you know what? Roy is a radiation oncologist. He's very familiar with the disease that you have, and he's writing a book, and the name of the book is Healing Before You're Cured." He wasn't done with the book yet, but he said, "I've talked to Roy already in it. I know he'd be interested in talking to you."

Matt Moran:

The reason I think this is important to note, I talk a lot about being truly present to those you're with because you never know where that gift is going to come from, and if you're not present, you're not going to be able to receive that gift, and this is how I changed.

Matt Moran:

Previous to this diagnosis, I probably would've said, "I'm all set. I'm going to a great team in Boston, Dana Farber. I don't need to talk to somebody else," and I probably would've said, "You know what? Eh, it's okay. It's okay. I don't," but fast forward today, I mean, Roy's one of my best friends today. Happy to say I'm going to his wedding in July in California. Healing Before You're Cured, that book now, I would say in large part, is foundationally how I think and believe about the journey that I'm on.

Curtis Worcester:

I love that. Matt, I want to keep going here and really get into how to practice gratitude in the face of adversity. So obviously, as we just were talking about in your podcast, With Gratitude, Matt, you not only talk about the theme of gratitude, but you make it into an acronym. So I want to ask you a two-part question here. So obviously, can you define gratitude or your definition of gratitude, and then can you go into the components that make up that a acronym, gratitude?

Matt Moran:

Yeah. This is going to sound cliche, but gratitude, to me, reflects your attitude. It's the old adage. Your attitude and gratitude, they're so correlated. For me, it's a mindset. It's an intentional mindset, looking for things. I could sit here today and I could tell you 10 things that aren't great about my life, but at the same time, I could tell you 10 things that are grateful and it's really what you're focused on and what your mind is thinking about determines how you're ultimately going to view today. I did start an acronym around gratitude and happy to walk you through it if you'd like.

Ben Smith:

Please do.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah, yeah, please.

Matt Moran:

We can dive into some of them if you have questions on them, but the G starts out with just gift. I mean, I firmly believe what connects us all is our heavenly Father who created us, and we here today as gifts to each other, and if we're not present, though, to each other, those gifts, they're not going to be not received and given appropriately. So G is gift.

Matt Moran:

R is response, how you respond to adversity. How you respond to just the day really dictates how the day is going to go. If you get up in the morning and you think about, "Oh, gosh! You know what? Actually, I got up at 6:00 this morning. I wish I could have slept till 7:00." You're able to get up today at 6:00 AM and you're going to have the opportunity the life that some people, they can't get up at 6:00 AM just because they physically can't do it. So it's how you respond.

Matt Moran:

A is attitude. There's a Charles Swindoll quote that's very prominent in my family, the Moran family. It's how you respond to situations. 90% of the equation is really your attitude and everything else represents just the small percentage of it. That's by Charles Swindoll, and it's great.

Matt Moran:

T is team. I mean, if I think about where I am today, I didn't get to where I am today by myself. I mean, there's a lot of support around me, and I've been a part of a lot of different teams, and I would bet those that are listening can also say that they didn't get to where they're at individually as well. So it's just being present to the team. Being a part of the team, I think, is really important, and recognizing you're not alone.

Matt Moran:

I is for intentional. Be intentional about how you're living, why you're living in the manner in which you're living. I bring intentionality into how I interact with my girls, how I interact with coworkers, and most importantly, how I pray.

Matt Moran:

The other T in gratitude for me is, and it's a funny one. It's tidal wave. There's a lot of different storms and, Ben, you touched on it. I talk about find the courage to be grateful regardless of how powerful the storm is. Tidal wave is a pretty powerful storm, but if you think about it, that tidal wave can either knock you over, and the biggest tidal waves create this huge wave. I envision a surfer riding on top of that wave and that surfer loves that big wave because it's giving him joy, and we can choose to either get knocked down by the hurdle that is right in front of us or we can embrace the opportunity that that hurdle's given us, and I'm choosing to embrace the hurdles that's right in front of me to get stronger in every aspect of my life.

Matt Moran:

U is underdog. I was an athlete growing up and still compete in sport. I enjoy competition, and I just am reminded of some. There's been some great underdogs in the United States soil. I mean, one in particular happened in 1980 US Olympic team. No one thought they were going to beat the Silver Unions, but I think if they went into that game thinking that they were going to get beat or lose the game, there's no way that they would win that game. Being an underdog doesn't mean you can't win. It's all mindset. How you're going to approach that hurdle is really important.

Matt Moran:

D is for daily. I have to practice gratitude every single day. It's just really important.

Matt Moran:

Lastly, just do it with enthusiasm. Be excited about the day that's right in front of you. For me, I'm not perfect. I mean, there's days I have tough days and some days are more difficult than others, but it is something, and I think, Ben, I think it was you, Ben, that touched on this, that the practice of gratitude, it gets stronger the more that you really think about it. So hopefully, that helps you out and happy to answer any questions as it relates to the acronym.

Ben Smith:

Well, Matt, you touched on a few things there and just something. I guess even just thinking internally here to my myself because you and I have been chatting for a few years and hearing your story and following your show a little bit and just listening and you get introspective as well, "Here's what Matt's putting out there." One thing is about being intentional and being present.

Ben Smith:

When I did my own inventory on myself over the last few years, and to give context, my wife is a big Disney fan. She loves Disney, right? So that's been her childhood happiest placed on Earth, go there and experience a really great day and enjoy some sunshine and do all the things and eat all the treats and the snacks.

Ben Smith:

Well, I'm looking at this. Of course, financial advisors is our practice and you look at this and you're like this, "Well, that's expensive and this is as much money," and you look at this, "Well, should we be doing this over here or do that?" I started looking at myself and going, "Man, I feel like I'm not being very present because I'm thinking about all the things that we could be doing instead." I feel like I'm not really being supportive of the family and where we are.

Ben Smith:

When you started to talk about the attitude and the intentionality, all of a sudden I said, but I know there's other things, but talk about, "Here's our family's crescendo of a vacation together. We're all spending time in a different place in the sunshine." Again, it's Maine, it's cold up here, right? I go, "I'm in the sunshine. I'm eating really great food. We're all having fun and laughing. Why am I being down? Why am I not participating here?"

Ben Smith:

So all of a sudden I started thinking about what I'm doing these, I need to come in today with a really great attitude. I need to think about all the positives of today, and that's even extended. Curtis and I, I know, Matt, you are a big golfer, and I've just started my golf journey and Curtis has been along with me on my golf journey. That has been the biggest change on me, personally, even approaching that first tee box of going, your point about a gift, and I'm with people that I don't get to spend time with, especially during this pandemic. We haven't been able to spend time with people, and to be present in the soaking stories and really focus on the good things.

Ben Smith:

You have a bad hole in the adversity and all of a sudden, "But, hey, this is a new hole. There's another shot." So golf has been a microcosm for that for me as well. So I know I'm maybe sharing just my own piece of it and my own reaction to you, Matt, but even all the things you're saying there has led me to some awakening in myself, and that's something where when you start seeing it yourself, you start looking at others. Again, a lot of our clients, they get so stuck there, and we've all been there is what we're saying or we've all been where we are. We're just not grateful for the day and we're just in a routine.

Ben Smith:

So I want to ask a question about, "Hey, then when you have this attitude of gratitude, and when you look at a study of couples, individuals who take time to express gratitude for their partner not only felt more positive toward the other person, but they also felt more comfortable expressing concerns about the relationship," right? It's, "I'm grateful for you here, but I know we need to do a little bit better there." How has being more grateful improved your relationship with your spouse?

Matt Moran:

Well, first off, and so full disclosure, that is a constant work in progress relationship, and it's never going to be perfect. What I'm looking for is positive progress, getting better. I'm never going to fully be exactly perfect, but the most important component, and this is a growth part that I think this disease has brought me, is I'm far more patient. I'm type A individual. You touched on earlier I'm a sales guy. I like to be in-charge, but I'm not in-charge of this.

Matt Moran:

There's things I can do to improve the odds, but I'm not in-charge. I've learned that. It's translated into my relationship with my wife, and I can't sit here and say that we go through each day, let alone each week, without having our arguments. We do, but I think the way that we interact and disagree is much different today than it was prior to this. I'm a better listener, I think, than I was prior to this, and that's partly because ... There's three things I think about each and every day, and one is obviously the gratitude piece, but I do touched on just being present to those you're with.

Matt Moran:

The most important relationship outside of the one that I have with God is with my wife, and if I'm not present for her, and if I'm not listening to what she's trying to say to me, and I'm so caught up in what I'm trying to tell her, I'm not going to fully be able to respond to what she might be saying. So my relationship, I would say, I'm far more patient and it's reflective. I'm far more patient with my girls.

Matt Moran:

I think gratitude and patience or attitude, whatever you want to say, it's a contagious thing. I mean, the more that one is practicing gratitude, it will, by osmosis, leak into those that you're living with. I touched on recently on the show, my relationship with my wife, it wasn't like it was a bad relationship, but we have a much more beautiful relationship today. Quite frankly, I don't think we would've gotten there as quickly as we had had it not been for the disease. I'm not grateful for cancer. I mean, cancer sucks, but there are some positive things that have come out of this.

Curtis Worcester:

I want to keep going there, Matt, because I think you're teeing up my next question very well. So I want to keep going with practicing what we preach, right? So what are some ways, and I know you just touched on some of the attitude there, but what are some ways we can cultivate gratitude just on a daily basis, any of us, and if you could share some examples of how you've done this and the impact it's had on you?

Matt Moran:

The easy one is, I mean, there's gratitude journal. You can pick them up anywhere. That's a great thing. When I wake up, I try to think about just one thing right away, "What are you grateful for?" In bed, intentionally, getting back to the intentional, intentionally thinking about, "What happened today that I'm grateful for?" I'm actually going to grab a book here. Just hang on a second.

Matt Moran:

So shout out to my friend Wayne Box Miller. I mean, he's got a book. It's Developing A Winning Attitude in the Face of Adversity. Wayne Box Miller is an example. If I'm not practicing gratitude, first and foremost, I never meet the guy, okay? He found out about my show and he sent me this book, and it's all about you wake up and you win.

Matt Moran:

I mean, some people didn't get up today. The fact that we can get up, it's mindset. I don't have to go to work today. I get to go to work today. I have the opportunity to go to work today. Right now, I'm sitting on your guys' show. This is an opportunity that I have. This is a gift. So I would say if you're struggling with it, start small, start today.

Matt Moran:

I mean, reality is here in the United States, I'm assuming, I mean, first off, your listeners, by and large, your typical podcast listener, first off, they have a mobile device.

Ben Smith:

That's right.

Matt Moran:

So I'm presuming if they can afford a mobile device, they're going to have food on the table. I mean, there's some people that just flat out don't have food on the table. Anyhow, yeah, start simple, start small. Wake up in the morning, gratitude. Go to bed, gratitude. It will expand.

Ben Smith:

Matt, I'll just add to it. I think just your point about being present, I feel like that's what's helped me is in the moments that I feel the most anxious, the moments that I feel the most stressed is asking myself that question of, "Well, what do you feel grateful for?" All of a sudden, it seems, well, then that thought carries more weight to me than the whole, "What am I ..." Again, something's going bad or something's going wrong, and then going, "Well, what am I grateful for?" All of a sudden, that attitude about the next thing is that much better versus, as you said, getting momentum.

Ben Smith:

So that has helped me a whole lot, but I want to ask another question. You mentioned your friend Dr. Roy's book, Healing Before You're Cured, and the impact that it's had on your outlook and thinking. On your show, With Gratitude, Matt, you talk about the four houses of wellness that Dr. Roy talked about in his book and how those have helped your own healing. Can you talk about what those are and how they've helped you?

Matt Moran:

Yeah. So I'm happy to talk to you about Roy and his book and the four houses of health that he talks about. The four pillars or the four houses would be your physical health, your mental health, your emotional health, and your spiritual health. What he talks about in the book is really how intertwined each one of the houses are. I mentioned earlier I was an athlete growing up. Athlete is maybe a strong term. Some would question that, but I participated, but I still enjoy. I mean, I've always enjoyed physical activity. I still work out fair amount today, but there's other things that you have to actually exercise in health as well.

Matt Moran:

You have to exercise your mind. That's the mental component. You have to exercise your emotional side. That's how you respond to things. Then lastly, you have to really pay attention to your spiritual life. I owe the foundational part of that a lot to my parents and what they did. So it came easy to me, but they really are intertwined. If you're weak ... He's convincing in the book, Healing Before You're Cured. I have really bought into if one element of that is weak, if you're weak in your spiritual life, if you're weak in your emotional health or if you're weak in your mental health, your immune system is not optimally working. With cancer, your immune system failed. I believe that. Okay?

Matt Moran:

Again, guys, I'm not perfect. I'm just trying to get better at each one. I meditated today and I meditate most days. I would say five out of seven days. Right now, I'm in the habit of going to drop off my girls at school, and I go to the chapel, and that's my quiet time. I do that on a daily basis. So I'm exercising my mind there, the mental side, but that's also impacting my spiritual life as well. I'm intentional about this.

Matt Moran:

It made sense to me. I owe a lot of that to just being introduced to Roy's book. Like I said, he's become a really good friend of mine. I'm very grateful for that, the work that he's done.

Matt Moran:

Actually, interestingly enough, one side note on Roy, he was raised in Buffalo, but his family, they're Thai or from Taiwan originally. He was trained from a medical perspective in the Western world, but he brings into a lot of the Eastern world thinking. I would say the Eastern world is much more integrated in the four houses of health that I referenced, particularly the mindfulness and the emotional side of the equation and the spiritual side.

Matt Moran:

I think it's changing here in the Western world a little bit, being more receptive, but it's just something that responded or hit me really well, and I'm grateful for the work he's done.

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah. That's amazing. I want to keep going on your podcast episodes. I know there was one that certainly stuck out to me, and I think if we have any listeners out there who might be fans of the NFL, it might stick out to them as well. So obviously, you had an amazing guest, Luke Kuechly, on your show, and Luke played eight seasons in the NFL for the Carolina Panthers, was named the 2013 NFL Defensive Player of the Year, just a tremendous career. I want to ask, what did you learn about gratitude from your conversation with Luke?

Matt Moran:

Luke's, first off, just an amazing guy. I connected with Luke in part because he and I went to the same high school and his high school coach is a good friend of mine and heard nothing but remarkable things about Luke. I was just really excited to have him on, and having him on what I learned is when I talked earlier about we don't get to where we are alone. That came through with Luke really strong. I mean, he touched on in the show how important his parents, his family were to his success. He talked about when he went to Boston College how upperclassmen gave him a hand and helped him along being a new athlete on the football team there, and even some of the juniors and seniors that were at the time playing in front of him that ultimately he took their spot, they were helping them along.

Matt Moran:

So it was very evident that he was very aware that he didn't become the elite NFL player alone. There was a lot of supporting cast around it. It even correlated when he got drafted in the NFL by Carolina. He got very involved in the community. That was a large ... I mean, I know the NFL gets a lot of bad rep a lot of times, but he paid tribute to Cam Newton and Greg Olsen who got him involved in the Carolina community down in Charlotte.

Matt Moran:

It's just really neat to hear his perspective on who supported him along the way, and I guess getting involved in the community. I'm a big believer that we are here to give back. We need to give back. If we're so focused on me, me, me, frankly, I don't think you're ever going to accomplish exactly what you fully can, and we have to give back. It's evident in the conversation I had with Luke that he feels the same way.

Ben Smith:

I love that, especially from someone that's been very successful in all walks of his life to then be able to say, "Even in these moments, I need to be present and thinking about others and others that are less fortunate," because I think, as you said, when you're so successful in your career to go, "Hey, I just got to worry about the next thing," and to be able to continue to take those moments, even now he's done playing, to continue to support the community. So that's really great.

Ben Smith:

I want to ask the flip side of the coin question to you, Matt. Really, like anything we practice in our life, gratitude as a way of thinking, maybe it should be balanced. There's stories out there. So I'm researching gratitude online and I'm looking at what's out there about it. There's a story out there about how gratitude can go wrong. So one of the stories I saw was this person had chronic pain and they're practicing gratitude. They're saying, "Jeez! Well, yes, I have pain, but my health is relatively good, especially compared to others, and maybe I can't do certain physical things. Maybe it's just because I'm getting older and I just toss away the chronic pain thing, but I'm just going to be focused on being grateful for the things that I can do."

Ben Smith:

So in some ways, maybe you could criticize practicing gratitude as maybe invalidating negative emotions or thoughts. That could be our body's way of telling us that something's wrong. So how have you found the balance? So you're maintained positive outlook, but you're also listening, right? So you want to be listening to maybe what your environment's telling you or maybe your body's telling you so that these negative thoughts that are there maybe signals that are saying something that I should be listening to as well and not just being dismissive of because I'm grateful for my position in my life.

Matt Moran:

That's a great question. I think it's a very important question, and I'm going to go back to the four houses of health for this because I would say, and I'm just being, hopefully, as transparent as I can here, that that one house that I probably needed the most amount of work on was the emotional side of the equation. The emotional side is really how we react to things. My ultimate goal here is to ignite my immune system so that it's optimally working.

Matt Moran:

So if somebody approaches me with something that I disagree with or I fundamentally thinks just absolutely wrong, I can react to that aggressively or I can try to learn from what they're saying and then react to that in I'll say a calm, in a rational way, and then just have a conversation about it rather than, "Why'd you say this?" Then all of a sudden, what happens when you emotionally react to something like that? It's going to only escalate. Next thing you have two irate people, and it's not positive and constructive.

Matt Moran:

So the four houses of health, to me, it's really important. You can disagree and react and have a conversation about something, but you don't have to react. That's the one house that I feel, and I'm still getting better. I mean, there's certain things that frustrate me like this morning. I drink a juice, a green juice every morning that we make. There's a powder. I couldn't find where the container was this morning. Now, my wife and I, we'd laugh about it, but we were able to find it. I would say probably prior this, I would've been all frustrated about it, "Where is it?" this and that. Now, we're able to laugh about it. Quite frankly, it was in a place that I put it, but emotionally, it's just trying to ... That's the one area that's helped me the most, and I think it's just ... If we think about the four houses of health and how we're reacting to things, hopefully, others can benefit from it as well.

Curtis Worcester:

Sure. Yeah. Matt, coming off the last two years here of this pandemic that we've all been living in, one thing that Ben and I talk about is we feel like many conversations have shifted to comparing our own circumstances to maybe somebody else's, right? You hear the, "Oh, at least you haven't gotten sick yet," or "At least you don't know someone who's passed away," or "You still got your job at least," right? I think that list goes on and on and everyone has a different version, and we think they're all riffs of the age old, "Be grateful for what you have because someone else has it worse."

Curtis Worcester:

So yes, that's a form of practicing gratitude, but I just want to ask, what would you say to someone who is practicing gratitude in that way? Just such a comparative nature there.

Matt Moran:

Couple things. Number one, when you start comparing yourself to other people in other situations, I am Matt Moran. Okay? There is no one else that is exactly like me in the world, in the world. Okay? So I am responsible for my four houses of health, but if you get caught up in comparing to others, my dad once said, and I think it's a wise saying, it's, "When you compare, you're in despair." Reality is some people have it worse, but oftentimes, what happens when you start comparing, you'll start just chalking up, "We're in retirement world, so people have a bigger nest egg than I do or they have a bigger home. They can go on more vacations than I do. They can afford to send their kids to this school versus that school."

Matt Moran:

That's a very dangerous trap, I think, to go down. I would rather look at how grateful we are to be able to send the kids to the school that we're able to send them to, to be grateful that we're able to take our family or, Ben, I know Ben's going to take his wife to Disney, so to take my family to Disney, and not so caught up because if you start comparing, you're always going to find somebody that has more than you. That's a slippery slope that I would encourage folks not to go down. Just, again, find the courage to be grateful right where you are. I'm sure you could find millions of people that would love to trade seats with you right now.

Ben Smith:

Matt, I'll say this. Our partner, AJ, and I, we talk about this a lot is this whole, "Hey, if we really wanted to, you could make our firm much bigger and it could be serving more people and we could be making more money," but you look at what you do in the relationships we have with the people in our lives that mean the most to us, and we know those are cups that we need to continue to fill, and if we only pour our cup into the work vocation and not into the other pieces of our lives, we just see that all over the place. We see people, the doctor that puts all of their time and works 90 hours a week, and they make a ton of money and it's great, but the relationship they have with all the people in their life is maybe not as good because they just were so career-focused.

Ben Smith:

So balance is such a big component to a lot of us and what we're doing. So yes, I could go make more money, but what am I giving up? What are the things that I have to give up my life in order to do that? When you do it, so the comparative part for me, that's always been my antidote to the whole comparison part is, yes, I could do that and they chose to do it this way, and whatever they choose to do is what they choose to do, but I know looking at myself this is what need to do for me, for my balance, for my relationships, the things that I hold and have importance in the value system that I have.

Ben Smith:

All of us have different value systems, and that's what makes this whole life work really well, but I think that's something that I think what you're saying really. That resonates with me a lot. I want to ask another question of you, Matt, here. So I'd never heard of Andy Hill until I listened to your show. This is a while back in your library, episode 16, about making amends. Andy Hill was a player on Coach Wooden's UCLA dynasty there. He had, I think, a strain relationship with Coach Wooden and talked to you about that, right? He went in and he had a really successful career and did a lot of really great things. Can you talk a little bit about why making amends is so important to the practice of gratitude and how Andy expressed it to you in that show?

Matt Moran:

Absolutely. No, Andy's a remarkable guy and I had the opportunity of connecting with him. This is, gosh, 14-15 years ago. He gave a presentation that at the time I was living in Detroit. So he played for John Wooden, and John Wooden, for those that aren't that familiar with him, he's got the pillars of success. He talks about them. Andy played for John wooden. He holds the distinction of being one of 13 NCAA basketball players to have three national championships. He's probably the only one that you really don't remember his name because the others are guys like Lou Alcindor and others, but he was on a team. He sat the bench for four years, and he had a lot of resentment and frustration over John. He talks about it in the show.

Matt Moran:

The reason I think making amends is so important, it gets back to the emotional side. If you're frustrated and did not resolve an anger man or a disagreement or something, it's inevitably going to fester in your life and it's going to impact other parts of your life. Andy came to this conclusion. I think it was 25 years after playing, and he had a very successful production career in entertainment, and he made amends with Coach John Wooden.

Matt Moran:

Now, his whole thing is he's now, basically, trying to preach John Wooden's principles of success. Everything that John was there. Even Andy would say that he was successful in part because of his foundation that he got from John Wooden, and John's all about ... He was really a teacher more so than a coach. He was just ingraining his principles in his athletes. He was recruiting certain types of athletes.

Matt Moran:

If you're hanging on to something and you don't resolve that, it's taking up space in your mind. That is only going to be destructive. I'm a big believer that we have to try to get that out so that, again, getting back to the immune system, that our immune system can properly fire.

Curtis Worcester:

That's great. Yeah. I think everyone, so obviously, we told everyone to go follow and subscribe to your show. I think that would be a good episode for everyone to start with. I know it is back in the library a little bit, but, Matt, we've reached the end of our conversation here. I do have one wrap up question for you. For everyone who listens to our show knows I typically ask a retirement success question here. I'm going to modify it a little bit and we're going to bring in gratitude because it's so important, and I think going forward I may keep the question this way, but I want to ask you, Matt. So how will gratitude continue to shape your life and then ultimately your retirement when you get there?

Matt Moran:

Yeah. A couple things. I'd like to answer that question if you don't mind one from my perspective, but also hopefully we can share something that enlightens others to think about their retirement and gratitude as well. For me, I'm going to go back to something Ben talked about, I think it's really important. We're all individuals. I can't tell you what your goal should be, but I think it's really, really important for us to have goals and priorities to make sure that we're building towards something that is our vision. Certainly, there's an economic component to that. That is one component, but for me, personally, I don't want to get to retirement age and find out that I physically can't do the things I like to do, and one which is travel. I'd like to travel with my wife.

Matt Moran:

I'd like to be able to still play some golf. I'd like to be able to still give back to the community. If I'm not physically well, then I can't fulfill that component. If I'm not mentally strong, I could have $10 million in the bank, but if I'm not mentally strong, it's going to be a dark retirement. If I'm not emotionally strong, and I'm trying to get stronger emotionally every single day, if I'm not emotionally strong, I'm always on edge. If I'm frustrated because somebody's got $11 million and I might have four, well, that's a ... You've saved for 40 years and that's what you have and you're going to be frustrated that you don't have more money. Well, that's going to be aggravating.

Matt Moran:

Then lastly, the spiritual side. I am continuing to work on that, but if that's weak, then it's creating weakness on the other houses. So I know we talked a lot about the houses of health, but it is foundationally really important to me. I just choose to try to be grateful wherever I am like today. I don't even know if I mentioned this to you, Ben, or not, but I've got a treatment coming up in the next, well, it's within the next three or four weeks. I'll get it scheduled, but they're going to be able to do a radiation, an MRI-guided radiation treatment that, frankly, I mean, some people are like, "Oh, my gosh! Why does he have to go through this?" I'm fricking grateful. I get to do this because this machine wasn't available two years ago, and it's an $8 million machine and there's only four in the United States. I get to do this. I have the opportunity to do this.

Matt Moran:

I, in my head, know that someday I'm going to be able to celebrate with you guys being disease-free. I'm not there. I don't know how long it's going to take. I really don't care. It's just I'm working towards that and I try to keep my mind strong because if I don't keep it strong, it's interfering with my immune system that I need optimally firing each and every day. So yeah, I mean, when I think about my retirement, I mean, yeah, and quite frankly, just for my own personal health, thinking about retirement is really important as well, a crystal picture of what that is because I'm a big goal setter, that helps me out as well, but if I was thinking about death, and I was thinking about what could happen, and I was thinking about the 14,000 people and I could be 14,001 this year, that's not a good spot to be in.

Matt Moran:

Guys, it's such an honor to be on your show and I'm really grateful to be here. Hopefully, some of this makes sense to send your listeners as well, and thank you.

Ben Smith:

Well, Matt, thank you because, again, I know going through the acronym of gratitude like you did and the first thing that you mentioned was G is a gift, and every day we have a gift and you certainly gave us a gift today with your time and sharing a lot of this with us because, again, I think this is a core component and you and I have talked offline about this that I think every one of us needs is even just we're doing this 10% more than what we're doing today, doesn't matter what the level is, if we're all building and building a foundation where we're thinking about this, our relationships are going to be deeper. We're going to be the person, when we walk in that room, that people are excited to see, that people love to be around.

Ben Smith:

The more that we can do this, that's a gift to not only everybody in our lives, but also to ourselves. I think years you're living that and you continue. As you said, we're all work in progress and we're all trying to strive towards it. You having that goal of where you're going, again, it ripples, and it is that stone in the stream that ripples throughout. I think your show is doing that. As a listener myself and be able to say, "Hey, there's a lot I can take from this," and I can try to improve myself.

Ben Smith:

Again, I'm not perfect. Curtis isn't perfect. We need to be better, but the fact that you gave us the gift today of sharing your time and your outlook in addition to the realities of where you are with your cancer journey, I can't thank you enough for it. This is just such a personal treat and pleasure that you came on and shared it with us.

Ben Smith:

So thank you so much, Matt, and I really, really want to have you come on again because I think we could spend another couple hours even talking about this and I know we will. So looking forward to that day and, Matt, we'll catch you next time.

Matt Moran:

Thanks so much, guys. Be well.

Ben Smith:

Take care.

Matt Moran:

Thanks so much.

Ben Smith:

So practicing gratitude in the face of diversity with Matt Moran. Yeah. I think Matt does a really, really excellent job. You get it from a pure perspective on his show, but this concept of, "Hey, living honestly every day, living with intentionality," and I know one thing that I just took away from today's show is, and I've just taken away from a lot of his shows so far, is this whole like, "Hey, every day is a gift and starting that day with what am I grateful for today and then what happened to me that I'm also grateful for." So it almost has this inventory effect of book ending your attitude, and when you're being reflective and saying, "Hey, not just looking at the things that happened to me that were bad and I'm going to get upset about," and we talked about making amends and that when you start focusing and dwelling on these are the bad things, and I'm so mad, this really bad thing happened to me today, and I want to reciprocate bad with bad.

Ben Smith:

I think when you start doing the opposite, I think you really start putting the emphasis on, "I was really excited to spend two hours with my son today, and that was a really great gift that I was able to do, and because of the circumstances surrounding me, I was able to do that even more than I normally get." All of that is with, "Here's what I'm looking forward to today and then what I'm ending." I think it just makes life fuller, right?

Ben Smith:

I think when we're in retirement and we have more time is having this audit of, "What I want to do with my time?" as he said the goals in having your core values and the things you want to achieve in there, and then being reflective of working towards it. I think those are really big takeaways I had from today. So Curtis, what did you take away from the show with Matt today?

Curtis Worcester:

Yeah. I feel like Matt's entire story and just his theme and the work and gratitude is so important. I don't necessarily want to pick one thing, but I will. So I think that we had an important conversation around the comparisons, right? Comparing our situations to others, whether it's we're being thankful that we don't have it as bad as somebody else or if, I think, and Matt touched on this, it quickly turns into a slippery slope of that turns into you realize there's other people who have it better than you. There's always going to be someone who may have it better than you, but that's such a, I think, a personal, that attitude, right? If you just approach it with, "You know what? No. I have this, I have that, I have this spouse, I have my kids," just flipping the mindset there, and you may, at the end of that, think that nobody else does have it better than you, and that's fantastic, right?

Curtis Worcester:

I think just the slippery slope of, "Oh, their house is bigger. Their boat is bigger. They have more money," it's not healthy, and I don't think it's going to lead to anything good. So I think just that focus that Matt gave us on really being thankful and grateful for what you have and being able to do the things you can do. It was just really important, and that stuck with me.

Ben Smith:

Yeah. I think one thing as practicing financial advisors that we see is what your point is. Look, I think some of us get so focused on what the number is in terms of money. By the way, that happens with all walks of life is how much money do we have and what does it represent, well, but also what people miss is that sometimes when we are comparing others and if they have more, well, maybe what this also represents is you have spent some of this money on experiences that you've already experienced that you get that gift of looking back on as, "Hey, maybe I have been able to use some of this money to develop more relationship with my spouse, with my kids, with my family, with my best friends or doing things that I like to do that fill my cup on a daily basis," as Matt talked about the four houses a lot.

Ben Smith:

I think all of those what does it represent, it's easy to say, "Hey, there's more of that," but there's a lot of things we can't measure in life, too. You can't measure people's relationship and the satisfaction and what they get from each other, all of that. So I think that's why maybe measuring gratitude in yourself and using that as the benchmark is the best way to go as Matt was saying.

Ben Smith:

So again, some really good things there from our show. We’re going to have a link to Matt's Apple podcast page and other links to his show to listen in. Also, again, March, as you said, was kidney cancer awareness month. I know we're in April right now, but if you found the inspiration in today's show, love to have you contribute to Matt's Dana Farber charitable fundraising page. I think that would be really great to help make a difference.

Ben Smith:

To find all that, you can go to our website. If you go to blog.guidancepointllc.com/63 for 63, and you can find more about our show with Matt Moran on practicing gratitude in the face of adversity. So really excited to have you on today. I know it's a little bit longer than our typical show, but I think this is a well-deserving topic to really dive deep in with Matt. I hope you get something out of it. We certainly did, and we'll talk to you next time.