The Retirement Success in Maine Podcast Ep 116: Boomers vs. Buildings: Is Senior Living Ready for the Coming Wave?

 

 

Transcript:

Intro (00:01):

Do you struggle with what it means to be successful in your retirement? Trust us, you're not alone. Welcome to the Retirement Success in Maine podcast. Here you'll go in depth with guidance point advisors, investment consultants to hear stories about how retirees in Maine are navigating a successful retirement. Get insight into the inevitable challenges of aging and define what a successful retirement looks like.

Ben Smith (00:26):

Welcome back everybody, to another episode of the Retirement Success in Maine podcast. I'm Ben Smith, and as always, I'm joined by the foundation to my shingles, the four walls to my roof. The only guide Want Helping Me Tour Senior Living Options. My co-host Curtis Worcester. How you doing today, Curtis?

Curtis Worcester (00:45):

I'm good, Ben. I'm good providing some structural support today, I think, but no, we're doing well. How are you?

Ben Smith (00:52):

Awesome. Yeah, doing really good. I know we've talked a lot on this show about how retirees really want freedom, purpose, and peace of mind, but there's one area of planning that a lot of people assume will just be there for them when they need it, and that's senior living.

Curtis Worcester (01:07):

That's right. And whether it's independent living, assisted living, or memory care, we imagine there'll be plenty of options in the right place at the right price. But the truth,

Ben Smith (01:19):

The numbers maybe don't add up demands exploding and supply is falling way behind. Industry Reports show we're going to be short hundreds of thousands of units over the next decade with $1 trillion investment gap by 2040.

Curtis Worcester (01:36):

That's right. And it's not just about buildings, it's about who will care for us as well, where we'll go and what quality of life we can expect to have in our eighties and nineties.

Ben Smith (01:48):

So today we're asking is the senior living industry prepared for the aging baby boomer wave and what happens if we don't build fast enough and joining us as someone who sees this dynamic every day from the front lines of senior living sales to the boardroom strategy sessions?

Curtis Worcester (02:06):

That's right, Ben. Our guest today is a senior living sales leader with a proven track record of building trust and guiding families through life's most meaningful transitions. Our guest is currently the senior sales director at Dirigo Pines, which is located in or Maine, where she brings more than five years of specialized experience in senior living. Before that, she's spent a decade leading national marketing strategy for a trade show manufacturer blending big picture thinking with heart-centered communication. Our guest holds A MBA from the University of Southern Maine, serves on the board of empty arms of Greater Bangor and is passionate about helping families find comfort, dignity, and joy in life's later chapters. So please join me in welcoming our guest, Jenna Biehn, to the Retirement success in Maine podcast. Jenna, thank you so much for coming our show today.

Jenna Biehn (02:59):

Thanks. It's a pleasure. It's great to get off the phone and talk to you guys and a little break from the day-to-day grind.

Ben Smith (03:07):

And Jen, I know we're going to dig into lots of the topic today, but also you want to get to know you a little bit better and introduce you to our listeners a bit. So love to hear you just talk a little bit about what inspired your transition from national marketing leadership into the world of senior living.

Jenna Biehn (03:24):

Sure. Yeah. So it's much different selling products versus selling ideally the last home people will ever live in. So it's much more emotional day to day. I work every day with people that are grandparents to me. I see them every single day. I see them much more than I see my own grandparents. So it's certainly a labor of love. I started here in this industry when I was a new mother, so I had a baby right before the pandemic hit and of course trade shows went away during the pandemic, which is what my career was built in. I stayed home for about a year with my baby and someone from my larger company reached out and asked if I'd be interested. I had never ever thought of anything like this, and now I can't imagine that I would do anything different because it is so fulfilling. This is something that people are so thankful for every day that we exist. So it's just the best. I mean, I can bring my kids in here and they're so happy to see my kids. There's babysitters here, so it's just like the best all around.

Curtis Worcester (04:32):

That's amazing. And in this role now, what have you found most surprising about how families make decisions about senior care? Again, especially in today's ever evolving environment?

Jenna Biehn (04:45):

Yeah, I think we're going to see a shift in the next 10 years, but what I'm seeing right now, and I think I would've been the same if I hadn't been at this industry, is the lack of planning. People may be planned financially, hopefully not everybody,

(04:58):

But they kind of thought that when this time came, there would just be a spot for them. So many of the people that I meet are in crisis mode, which is honestly the hardest place for me to operate in with 'em because that's when there's never going to be a room. So if you plan ahead, all of a sudden there'll be glorious apartments. It's just how it works. But if you need a place to go, and that's when people end up in it somewhere that they didn't want to be. They plan financially, they can afford to go to a really nice place, but there's no place for them there. So that is the most surprising thing that I see is that people just have this mindset that they could just walk in and maybe five, 10 years ago you could, but with that shift happening right now that we're going to talk about, it's just not possible. And that is still a surprise every day. And still the hardest part of my job is dealing with those people that did not come in and tour, get on wait lists, find out where they want to be when the time is right, and then they're just panic jumping from community to community touring.

Ben Smith (05:59):

So Jenna, I think you just answered maybe some of my next question, but I want to ask it maybe just larger generally, but from your experience, how have senior living communities evolved over the last decade, so backwards, the last 10 years, and where do you see them heading? Because again, I think you just kind of answered some of that as, hey, maybe you were able to go in and just kind of get that spot to five or 10 years ago, but want to just, maybe that's part of it, but maybe there's larger things. Want to just hear what your take is there?

Jenna Biehn (06:28):

Yeah, let's double a little deeper. So I am lucky to work in a community that has a continuum of care. A lot of places don't have that, but that means that I start from independent living in small cottage homes or apartments. I have assisted living, elevated assisted living and memory care. So it's always sort of been the case in memory care and elevated assisted living that people come to us with a pretty immediate need. The people that are coming into independent living, they are typically doing the legwork up front. They don't have an urgent need to move because they're physically independent. They could stay home if they had to for a bit. So when I was touring before, it would be for the long game. People feel a lot more sense of urgency now when they're touring because there's just not a lot of inventory.

(07:15):

When I would tour five years ago, we would have 10, 15 apartments that I could show them and they could have the pick of the litter. Now I often don't even have an apartment that I can take people into to show them because they're all full. So that urgency has switched a little bit and people are seeing the benefit of coming in earlier to senior living. When I started even five years ago, I think the average age has dropped quite a bit. That has changed. It's the best time that people in that generation has ever experienced to cash in their biggest investment, which for most people was their home. So it's paid off. They're having a great opportunity to do that. So I'm seeing people in the early seventies coming in, which is just not the case, especially where I live, which is in Maine, people tended to stay home as long as possible.

(08:03):

It was everybody's intention to age in place at home. I think there's very few people that have this grand idea that they'll come to senior living. Everybody expects that they'll be able to stay home. And then we find that a lot of houses, especially that are more than 20 years old, were not built to age in them. So there's stairs, there's old heating systems depending on where you live in the country. There's plowing, there's shoveling, there's lawn care. People just didn't think about longevity. I think we don't have the sense of mortality that they think that they have to do this. So that has changed. The urgency has certainly changed. I also am touring much more than I ever did before. So much of my day before was spent calling people. Now I spend the majority of my day just meeting with families. I think early in my career it was selling and now it's more educating. So now I'm talking to people about the planning ahead. I'm trying to hold seminars. So even I'm 39, I plan a lot different for senior living than I did before I started working in this industry. So I think so much more education goes into it because right now senior living kind of sells itself because we're heading into this baby boom generation coming in.

Curtis Worcester (09:18):

That's fantastic. And you're leading right into the topic today. You just teased it with the baby boomer generation aging here. Ben teased this kind stat in the beginning. So reports from N-I-C-M-A-P Vision Project, a 550,000 unit shortfall by 2030, which is shockingly right around the corner. I just want to ask again, we all see these reports, we read about it, we hear 'em. What are you seeing in your day to day, right? You're kind of the boots on the ground in this situation. What are you seeing? I know you just talked a little bit about it, but when it comes to demand for units versus availability today?

Jenna Biehn (10:01):

Yeah, by 2040 is predicted that people coming into senior living will have almost doubled. So what I do on a daily, my workload will have doubled and the communities won't have doubled because we also are very mindful in this industry that we will be servicing this huge generation, but then the following generations cannot fill those rooms that we build. So if we build at the rate that baby boomers will come in, the following generation won't fill those rooms, but it's not just the lack of space, it's the lack of workers as well. So the generation below the baby boomers, there's not enough workers to perhaps support them, which is also what we're seeing, a big reason why people are having trouble aging in place at home. They just can't find home healthcare. So industry, there's two factions. There's private pay communities and then there's insurance funded communities, low income communities, that sort of thing.

(10:57):

The wait list for those different factions is very different. So I think talking to you guys is important for me to bring back to people as well because people who have planned financially for senior living are going to be in a much better position. I work for a private pay community, which means we have the ability to pay our workers more. We have longevity with workers. We have people that have worked here since the day we opened 22 years ago. The rooms are all private, you'll never have a roommate, you don't know that sort of thing. Places that have to rely on insurance reimbursements. The future of that is so unpredictable that we saw 16 skilled nursing facilities close in my state last year, and I have a small state. So the people who had not planned financially, I'm really at a loss for them because it wasn't planned for the people who didn't plan financially.

(11:53):

Even the people who did plan financially, they will have to get on wait lists. I think that's sort of the thing I did. Everything I think about that I put into my 401k, I did exactly what Ben and Curtis told me. I put in 10%. But then just because I did the right thing doesn't mean that I just get a red carpet rolled out and the angels sing. You still have to do the groundwork and find out where you want to go. So I think it's important to include your adult children because so many people want to stay home as long as possible and they wait too long and then they can't make the decision. Someone has to make the decision for them. So it's important that your adult children know what your intentions are. That's been a big switch too. I see so many people that are my parents' age coming in for their parents and they were like, I don't know what to do.

(12:44):

I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing that my dad didn't have a power of attorney. I met with one gentleman who is 99 and he doesn't have a power of attorney or a will because that means he will die. Everybody has a terminal condition here. So it so much is unplanned. And I think with the education happening with people like you, I know that a lot of universities are doing seminars on this. I hope to see that that continue to switch, that adult children are included more. I think our parents raise us, so we assume that they can make all these decisions, but some people get to a point and they can't make that decision. So it's really important that all generations are educated because we're going to get to a point in the next 20 years that we've got to make quick decisions when apartments come up.

Ben Smith (13:31):

Gotcha. And Jenna, I got to go back to something you just said. When you save 10% in your four one K, we will order the Angel Sing package for you next time. So I think it just maybe gut missing in the mail. So when you up your contributions, we want to make sure that happens for you. But from obviously as you're going to talking about obviously the lack of building and kind, what that's meaning for availability, and I just want to talk a little bit about that a little bit more. Obviously there's a hesitation in the industry to go, why am I going to build something? First of all, put the capital out and interest rates are high and construction cost is high and they have labor issues themselves. So it's going to be a lag to then build probably the units that are necessary to meet demand.

(14:18):

And maybe at this point, we probably have built it right at the time that the baby boomer generation has expired. So there's kind of maybe a mismatch in terms of construction to when the projects are completed and when it's needed, but obviously want to just hear about then if that's the case where there's not going to be buildings. So that's not going to be an answer. What does that mean for this generation that's retired and trying to be into senior living? And then what that means for the next generations too, because at the same time, if you're not building new units or you're not building a lot of new units, well then the next generation's probably being aging into then older units as well. So can you talk about what that looks like and what that might mean for this generation and next?

Jenna Biehn (15:05):

Yeah, so what's kind of cool about senior living units, it's a unique industry that is that these sort of real estate investors have portfolios and a lot of them invest in real estate. Those portfolios typically last seven to nine years, and then they're refunded by a new investment company. So that just happened with us recently. Our management company remains the same. It always has been. Nothing really changes. The residents don't know about that. But what happens is when it's refunded, these companies typically put quite a bit of money in. So our building is 23 years old, we just had a complete facelift. They redid all the heating units, all the siding, all the interiors, because they want the return on the investment as well, and they see that. So typically buildings that are part of larger portfolios like grace management, they have this money to put that in and they do some of the small, and that's the difference in the ones that accept insurance versus private pay.

(16:05):

They don't have that money to put back in. So those are the aging, you see, that's what I had in mind before I came to senior living was like nursing home, white walls, stainless steel, hospital beds, that sort of thing. And that's just not what the majority of senior living is. Now that is healthcare, senior living is living. We're focused on living. So I know that the privately held industry sees a value of putting money back into them. And it's not to say that there won't be new buildings, there will be, but I know in terms of the big retirement companies that have a lot of properties, their goal is to buy other properties that are already in existence. They're established, they have a good reputation, they're already staffed. And five years ago, 10 years ago, about 3% of those came up for sale. Every year now we see a fraction of 1% come up for sale because senior living is such a good investment that nobody's selling right now.

(17:05):

So that's a huge shift as well. There's just not for these big companies that are building their portfolios of retirement communities, there's not a lot to buy that are already existing. So there will be some built. We're also seeing a shift in where people retire. The cost of insurance in Florida because of the hurricanes is huge now. So we won't see as many built down there that we used to. It also depends on where the tax implications are around the country, where you'll see them come up. The New England, which is where I live, has the oldest population in the nation and we have the least amount of retirement communities. So I think that we'll see its shift in that post pandemic. We saw a lot of people coming from out of state to New England, which was not always the case. Certainly I think the goal was to leave New England. So I think we're going to see a lot in the next 20 years of restructuring of where people go to retire.

Curtis Worcester (18:05):

That's interesting. And shifting a little bit. So I know we've talked about it in the first couple of questions here about limited options. So we want to ask, so what happens when retirees are faced with limited options? What compromises do families have to make when they can't find the availability for their, whether it's parent loved one situation there?

Jenna Biehn (18:28):

So it really depends on how the person is aging. So people who have a memory care diagnosis like Alzheimer's or dementia, that's much trickier to deal with at home. That is not something that people can typically safely stay home with because you need someone there 24 hours a day that's much different than someone who is 80 and just is a fall risk. So their kids are a little bit worried. Maybe they take their pills Monday and Tuesday on Wednesday. That's much easier to manage at home while you bridge that gap. And memory care is the most expensive to operate. So the people who are not able to find memory care are having the most difficult time. And typically what we see with seniors who have that diagnoses and their families just can't place them and they don't know what to do, they end up in the hospital and we see people in the hospital for as long as two years waiting for beds.

(19:23):

If they haven't planned financially for a private pay community because they are so expensive to operate, there are just not a lot of memory care beds. People in assisted living and independent living, they typically are able to get into the place that they want because they can bridge that gap at home with family support as long as they have to. But getting on the wait list is crucial. Typically, we see the people that are panicking like you're talking about, they can't get their person. It's something that can't be managed at home safely. And then unfortunately, there's people who don't have close relatives, and I'm sure you guys have encountered this. We have a number of residents who attorneys or their financial planners are their powers of attorney and they are the ones paying the bills and making the decisions. And that is probably something that when you guys were going to school wasn't talked about as much because that's a very personal thing to have to do for someone.

(20:20):

So there's so many dynamics in this because we're dealing with people, we're not dealing with a product or a portfolio of money at the end of the day, it's attached to a person. So when people get into that position where they can't find a spot, that's the hardest thing for me because I'm a person too and we want to house everybody that needs to. So it's difficult. Oftentimes people have to go the medical route, and unfortunately if you go into an emergency department, those doctors are incredibly skilled. But the thing is that they have to know a little about a lot of things, not a lot about one thing. So then they're not encountering the specialists that they should have. So people don't even know that there are specialists in memory care. So there's mood and memory clinics, and that's when you go in and you get the right medications.

(21:10):

Otherwise they're kind of throwing spaghetti at a wall and seeing what sticks, including, I don't think people realize what a care team is, which includes you guys. You're part of a care team doing the portfolios, that's the doctors, that's the children, that's me. There's so much that goes into making that decision that if you wait till the last minute, it's going to be very rare that you and I could connect with their physician with the kids and get them in the right place. So that's the big difference that we're seeing as people are starting to understand that. I think before that, there was a talk about that people had I come in and these guys are like, well, I've got a hundred thousand in a safety deposit in Ock, and they have to release their portfolio to me. So I can see it looks so different now than it did 10 years ago. And in a lot of ways it's really good. I think people are positioning themselves to ride this wave and find the right place. I do see that before people were not positioned, but they didn't have to be. I think we're going to see it. I don't think it's as scary as we think it is. I think there's ways to navigate it, certainly.

Ben Smith (22:21):

So Jenna, there's also talk about lifestyle expectations. So boomers obviously may want something very different from the generations before them. So can you talk a little bit about how the industry is adapting or maybe not adapting to those expectations of what the demands are now versus what they used to be?

Jenna Biehn (22:38):

Sure. So historically places, nursing homes, senior living communities, have always had what's called an activities director Now that has been rebranded as a life enrichment director because that's what it's going towards. So activities kind of just fill a day, right? They're tasks to do, but life enrichment are tasks that are actually enriching your life. You're living, you're not just staying there, you're living there. So there's been a big drive to that. And I would say when I'm touring with people, that's one of the first and most important questions to 'em is what do you have for activities? Because the fact of the matter is if people could stay at home, they would. So people who are coming into independent living and assisted living, they're coming because oftentimes it's a lack of socialization and people are seeing that impact. So there's a lot more demand for elevated activities.

(23:33):

So people are not happy with just painting birdhouses and playing bingo. Of course, we still have that. There are people that really love that, but we're seeing a big drive for people wanting continued education in senior living. These are lifelong learners. People who come into senior living to independent and assisted living, typically it's because they want to be active. So they're asking us, do you take part in senior college? I live in a university town, I work in a university town. Do you have an affiliation with a university in your town? They want to know that. So we have, where I live, a prominent arts center, they want to make sure that we have transportation available to plays, to musicals, things like that. Transportation is huge for people, especially people that live in more rural areas. They want to make sure that there's transportation available at their community for when they can no longer safely drive.

(24:27):

So people are now much more lifestyle based because they're coming in younger. So people used to come into senior living towards end of life and they just wanted to relax. They just wanted to watch their soaps and do bingo and stuff. But now people are coming in because they want to be around other people. They want these meaningful connections all the way through end of life. They don't want to just have the last 10 years of their life sitting in front of a TV in a recliner in their home because they can't physically get out to do things. They don't have transportation. That's what happens sometimes when people stay at home. So we are seeing a big push for the lifestyle and amenities. They want to make sure that we have gyms in senior living who would've thought people, they want to see the exercise equipment where they're moving.

(25:16):

And that's huge because the quickest way out of a residential assisted living, a nice place that's still apartments, still things to do is like a broken hip or the inability to move it all. We put such a value on people maintaining their mobility. We partner with local physical therapy all the time to come in and they do promotions about movement challenges and things like that because that is huge. So people want to live and that's why they're coming in here. We saw post pandemic, what an effect isolation had on everybody, but especially the older population that was kind of forgotten because they were the most vulnerable population. So they were told to isolate, not go around places. And then post pandemic, I'm seeing people come in much younger to memory care because they didn't have that interaction. So atrophy was happening. We saw here pretty immediately that limiting people coming in to visit was having such an emotional and mental impact on people that we had to find ways to pivot and make sure that they could still have that family interaction.

(26:26):

They could still have volunteers come in here. We saw how important it is to keep socialization happening all the way through end of life here. So that's really what we focus on, and I think what the focus will be going forward, the generation coming into senior living worked really hard, but they also learned to kind of play hard. The generation before them where they stocked away the money, a lot of them had never been on an airplane, never been on a vacation, but the generation coming in, they're well traveled, they have a certain expectation about the way that life will be. They will not be happy with what traditional senior living food looked like. They are going to want higher brow things. So we as an industry are pivoting that way, and that's a big switch. I think the change in title of that one role of activity director to life enrichment director is very telling.

Curtis Worcester (27:17):

Yeah, no, that's super interesting. I want to zoom out maybe a little and almost something, maybe go back a little bit to something we've talked about kind of briefly in the beginning, but it's planning, right? So obviously all three of us I think are very big planners just based on this conversation. So I just want to ask Jenna, what kind of planning should a family be doing right now if they're trying to get ahead of this curve? What conversations do you think people should be having now? What should they be doing to really start getting ready for this shift?

Jenna Biehn (27:50):

Yeah, I think we have to start normalizing it. And I think doing stuff like this, talking about it on public platforms will help. Because I know when I had these conversations with my parents who are in their mid sixties about We need to have a power of attorney in place for you. We need to look at a family trust for these things. Those are like, well, we won't need to think about that for another 30 years. And that's the shift that needs to happen because we need to have these conversations

Intro/Outro (28:16):

Also

Jenna Biehn (28:17):

With our children so that they know what to do from a young age to this will happen to all of us. Hopefully if all goes well, we will have long full lives. So we need to plan for these things. So normalizing the conversation piece so that adult children can approach their parents in a way that doesn't feel like they're telling them, you're going to do this when you get old. I'm going to put you here. There's so many jokes around, I'm going to put you in a home. I'm going to do this, and stuff that kind of needs to go away and make it so that senior living isn't the threat, isn't the joke. It's kind of like the goal for me anyway, now working here and walking through the whole, this is the goal. So if we can normalize those conversations, I think more early in the planning stages, people should start coming in and touring.

(29:03):

I talk to people all the time. I have people on my wait list that are 10 years out. I have people that are in their late fifties on my wait list. They just know that in this area, this is where they want to be when the time is right. But on my wait list, if I call you for an apartment and you say, no, I don't bump you to the bottom, I don't kick you off. It's just a different conversation. Someone who's three months out, I'm calling them every time there's apartment, someone who's 10 years out, I do an annual check-in. But those are the people that are really forward thinking, and I think the direction that we want people to be moving, I think 10 years is a stretch. You don't need to get in that long. Those people are better planners than three of us.

(29:39):

But I think though a year, two years out, it is very realistic when people have time to make a decision. Studies have shown that the average time from the first touch point to move in is about two years. So people, if they have the ability to plan two years, is a comfortable space for most people. That gives them time to start thinking about downsizing because a lot of people have lived in the same house for 40, 50, 60 years. They have a lifetime items in there. Their kids grew up there. It's really hard. A lot of people in the generation now have never lived in an apartment. Apartments just weren't common back then. So pivoting to communal living, those are things that you have to start wrapping your brain around. So in a perfect world for me as a salesperson, they probably would want me to say is that you'd come in, I'd get you to sign a contract and you move in the next day.

(30:32):

I find the best transition for the longest lasting resident who will stay happily in senior living. They are acclimating themselves with the community that they plan to come to before they ever come. So they come in for a tour of their family. Their family knows this is their intention. They put a deposit on a wait list so that they know they've proven this is their intention. Then they start coming to events. When we have our string quartet come in, they come in and they explore that. They come in and have dinner once a month. They meet the people who live here because that's also in our heads. We think the only people that go to senior living are old people that are staring off into space. And the amount of people that come in that are 80, and those are old people and they're looking at 75, it's really crazy.

(31:16):

You have to experience it. So the best thing that people can do for their parents, for themselves is to make these decisions early on. And you can always pivot, all wait lists and may at least start refundable. You can make that decision and still change it, but you need to start wrapping your head around it. Otherwise, it's a culture shock. Imagine when kids go to college for the first time, how overwhelming that is to all of a sudden live with a hundred other people. But if you have been coming to events, the people that is so huge, and a lot of places, a lot of communities now are going towards ambassador programs, including residents in the welcoming committee because they were all new once. So we see that shift happening. We want people to live here through end of life, and now that people are coming in earlier, people are staying in the same communities 20, 30 years, where before the average length of stay is four or five years.

(32:10):

Maybe now we could see people living in our buildings 20, 30 years, which used to be very uncommon. So making sure it's the right decision. I mean, in my thirties, I don't want to move. I mean, I had a starter home that is now my forever home because the idea of moving is awful. So we place a high value that this is a huge decision for people. This is ideally, it's not even, and you have to get comfortable with these conversations. They're not just choosing where to live, they're kind of choosing where they'll die too. So that is a huge impactful decision. It has to be the right one. So you can't make a hair trigger decision. It's the only place that has a bed. You have to move there. Getting in that position is the worst possible place A senior could be,

Ben Smith (32:56):

And I can see Jenna, where you could essentially, if you've sped up that process and you're just making rush decisions, you can kind of have this buyer's remorse when you first get in, what did I do that I don't like these people. I don't have anything in common. They're old, I'm not. They're saying all those things because they're trying to talk themselves out of why they're going to be there. And it's like if they kind of allow themselves to date before they marry here, you're kind of experiencing, it's then all of a sudden they're like, well, geez, I see the merits of this. That was really fun. And I see the pros of what we're doing, and they go, now when I'm ready, I am really ready and I really want to commit and I really want to get there. So I think that's a really important step that I think you're outlining.

(33:39):

I want to talk a little bit about going back to one of the things that you said, Jenna, about the industry and where things are at and a shortage of units, and obviously as you were saying, is ROI for the private and especially established is makes sense, right? Because they have all this established, but newer ones may be less ROI. It just is a ramp up and there's the initial capital outlay and before you fill it, it takes a while. So can you talk a little bit about, obviously there's the high construction costs, labor shortages, things that are just have slowed down some of the new build, the new constructions in senior living. Can you talk just from your perspective, what could get the industry moving again in terms of the velocity of builds in this? Because again, I know what you're saying about there's a mismatch, but also there still makes sense to always have some building happening overall and catching up here. So what's your take there?

Jenna Biehn (34:35):

Sure. I think we see a lot of senior living companies, corporations starting to pivot towards advocacy. So the older population isn't very well advocated to because they are no longer income producing in a lot of places. So they're kind of put to the side and it's focused on younger generations and future generations and that sort of thing. But there needs to be some advocacy happening because taking away funding for seniors, taking away funding for senior living communities is really putting such a hurdle in place for places to build. So if they aren't sure that, so private pay communities such as myself will always have a home because there are people like your clients that have planned financially and they can afford to live here, but there is a much larger population that didn't think that they would ever need senior living. So they didn't think about that, right?

(35:29):

And those are the people that are going to get left behind if we don't advocate for them. And it doesn't behoove people to build places are going to need low income housing if they aren't guaranteed that they're going to get those reimbursements. So we have to take care of our seniors, we have to advocate for them. That's the only way that communities can be built is if they know that there will be people coming in that part, the box is checked, we know people are coming in, that part's checked, but who is going to pay for it? That box is not checked. So right now we see a lot of insurance-based companies closing because they aren't getting reimbursements, they can't get workers. And then I think private pay communities can purchase those ones and turn them into private pay. But in terms of people who need more assistance, that is going to be the underserved population.

(36:21):

And I really feel strongly that we all need to be advocating for those people because they're going to get left behind. And it's such a trickle down effect that we don't think about. We talk about what a housing shortage is, so we can't get highly skilled workers to move to rural places, no housing for them. But one of the main reasons there's no housing is because seniors cannot afford to leave their homes. So people are staying in their homes, they're not going onto the market. So we see very few homes coming onto the market right now, and that's because there's a stop gap in that diagram that the chart we're supposed to follow, it can't be followed because there's no safe place for seniors to go.

(37:01):

So there's so much interwoven, and I think having these conversations, because we do have some time, 2040 is really when it's predicting that the big boom will happen. I'm starting to hear conversations about it. I'm touring more, but the overwhelming rush to it I think is going to be in 10, 15 years. So we have time. We need to start advocating for everybody that's coming into this. Just because they're no longer income producing doesn't mean that they need to be forgotten. And it's so much like, well, they didn't plan. They weren't told to plan. They weren't told that this was because these conversations didn't happen. It's much different. And you guys see that all the time, I'm sure in your industry. People in our generation are planning much differently than those before. People didn't know, a lot of people saved a lot of money, but didn't necessarily make it work for them or grow it. So I think we're seeing a difference. I think the advocacy is where we need to focus because that's the only way communities are going to be built. There's no, there's truly no benefit to anybody building a community that can't be paid for

(38:07):

Because it will just,

Curtis Worcester (38:08):

No, that's a really great answer there. I want to maybe backtrack a touch to the planning piece. Let's say somebody who's planning through what they want or starting to think about their senior living. And for someone who maybe is concerned, we know a big piece. People want to stay independent, they want to stay in charge of their decisions as they age. For someone who's maybe concerned about that, what can they start to do now that will ensure that control of their future in terms of housing care, long-term lifestyle, things like that. What can we start doing now to make sure we keep that independence as much as we can?

Jenna Biehn (38:47):

Yeah, I think it's really important to know what your options are later in life. I know for me on my portfolio, there's this tracker that tells me how much I'll have at a certain age, what my monthly income is, but that means nothing if you don't know how much things cost. So if it says, I'm making this up, have $9,000 a month income from that, what does that mean? If I'm in a private pay memory care, I might need $15,000 a month. So that's a lot of money right now to me, but it might not be then. So it's really important to know what those dollar amounts mean. So yeah, it looks great. I have all this money, I'm going to retire with all this money, but how much do I actually need? And so I think it's really important that all industries talk to each other.

(39:32):

That's a large part of what I do is I meet with people like you. I meet with doctors, I meet with lawyers so they know what they're actually talking about because also we're all young, vibrant and beautiful. We haven't even thought about senior living yet. But it's important that you guys know how much it costs for your clients, and it's important to know that that's not a stagnant cost that goes up by a percentage every single year. That's one thing that's guaranteed here. It's always going to increase. There'll be an annual increase because there's cost of living increases. We've seen in the last three years, our housing operating, our houses skyrocketed. So we have to have an increase to keep the lights on, to keep people fed, that sort of thing. So those are also things that we need to plan for. So right now at almost 40, if I plan for it to cost 10,000 odd dollars a month for me in senior living where I work, I know that right now the costs are that that's not what it's going to be in 20 years when I come in.

(40:27):

So I need to be thinking about that as well. I think it's really important, the planning part to understand what things cost. Because when people are starting to think about it, they're like, well, at my house, my house is paid off, so I don't have a house payment. I just have my taxes. I just have my utilities. It's looking pretty good to just stay home. I've only got a couple thousand a month going out. But then if you look at really all the costs that you do have going in versus what's paid for in senior living, it kind of comes out as a wash. Also, we see studies have shown that people that come to senior living actually live longer. So you are having more access to healthcare. You are more active, you're more socialized. So it's also the cost analysis of the benefits of the lifestyle you have.

(41:16):

So you could stay home, maybe save a little bit of money, you also can't take it with you. So there's so many things to start thinking about that people, I don't think people realize how much they actually spend at home. We have a whole chart that we show people. You fill out how much you pay at home versus what's included here, and people are pretty shocked at how much they're actually putting out each month. I think I would probably be horrified if I was self-aware enough to sit down and do it myself. So that's part of the planning, but also planning through end of life, not just the income. My grandmother lives with the community that I work with for full disclosure. So when we are thinking about that as a family, we look at worst case scenario. So maybe she's independent living, it costs $5,000 a month for her to live here. What if she gets really, really bad in it's memory care? That's more like $15,000 a month. So then anything less than that is a gift for as long as we can get it. We always plan for worst case scenario.

Ben Smith (42:21):

So Jen, I think you're bringing up something here is obviously from a continuum of care and as we're thinking about this and just asking you from your industry knowledge is it feels like, and I think this came from just mauer a little bit in one of the episodes that we did, was there might be an opportunity for innovation is to your point, there's a mismatch in terms of availability to what a need is going forward. So can we innovate? Can we do something different in terms of a model? Maybe it's either in how we build or how we think about senior living and what that even means. And Jess was kind of relaying of, maybe there's a model in college towns like Oro where we are pairing college students who have difficulty paying for apartment or dorm living and pairing them with a senior and the senior's getting kind of care from that college age person. But the college age person is also getting obviously cheaper living as part of that, and they're right in town where their classes are, and maybe that's a match. Or maybe there's maybe more community living and there's better structure in terms of closer knit houses that they're all kind of one part of a commune type thing. So again, things like that. So what's your kind of take on maybe some innovation that could happen over the next say 10 or 15 years that might help solve some of these challenges?

Jenna Biehn (43:46):

That's a really interesting model that we're seeing pop up now, the intergenerational communities, and it's not just college kids, it's young families moving in with older families. And I have a cottage community on my campus, so it's people earlier in retirement that are still pretty physically capable, but they have small homes that are maintenance-free living. So some of these intergenerational ones are kind of like that. They're like small houses that all live together. But the community aspect is there's people there to watch over you. There's a safety aspect of having younger people and older people together. It's also seen as from a business model standpoint, it's a great feeder because when younger people come in, then they have this idea of where they can put their parents. So as a business model, it makes a lot of sense because you have this constant referral basis of young people who, older people that they can move in.

(44:40):

So it makes a lot of sense. It's a matter of finding new places to build them. I think that the co-op model is very appealing to a lot of people in senior living co-op model being that people come in when they're on the younger side of senior living, still independent, still want the feel of independence of home ownership, but they don't want home ownership anymore. That co-op model's very appealing. It's not as common in the northeast because housing costs to operate are expensive. I have that model at my community. They are more common in warmer places like the villages in Florida and stuff like that. You see, that's the big one that everybody knows about. But those type of models are very appealing and that could be turned into something that's intergenerational. Certainly. And there's a lot of studies that show that intergenerational relationships between people is hugely impactive.

(45:38):

We have the humane football team come in and they have an adopt a grandparent program. The Humane women's basketball team comes in and they are paired up with an older person. There's a lot of value in that. I think that we will see more continuum of care communities, which is like what I have, because it helps people age in place. If you have just a community that only does independent living or only does assisted living, when your needs change, you then have to start the process all over again and get on a wait list somewhere else. I think with the population coming in that is looking to live in senior living longer, to spend 10, 20, 30 years in senior living, I think that continuum is going to be hugely important because that's what people are going to look for. They're going to want to go to a community where they can age in place that the community will adapt with them as their needs change. They don't have to start all over. Nobody wants to move when they're 80 and 90. Being in a community where the people that work there, the people that live there, your family is close by, ideally, that's hugely beneficial. And I think that senior living insiders are seeing the benefit of that, and I think that that is where the planning is heading.

Curtis Worcester (46:54):

Yeah, that's really, really interesting to think about there. Jenna, as someone who, on the day-to-day you help families navigate these choices, just kind of one shot, one insight, that's one thing that you wish that maybe every retiree would consider when it comes to this long-term planning?

Jenna Biehn (47:13):

I wish that everybody would consider the options available to them earlier because people who are going to stay home until something happens,

Curtis Worcester (47:24):

So

Jenna Biehn (47:24):

Many people that I meet with, there has to be an event that happens to get them to move in. And that's when it becomes not a choice. And I don't think people realize that. I don't think people realize that when they are waiting for an event to happen, they're losing their ability to choose. They now are forced to go somewhere because a doctor has said it's not safe for them to be home alone. Their kids are not in a position to help them because also their kids' generation is having to work long hours all the time. They can't care for them at home. I think that people, until it comes, until it's taken away, I don't think people understand how powerful choice is

(48:05):

Until they leave that. So I really wish that people would plan ahead because even those with early onset dementia, when I talk to them, you would never know unless at length. But coming in early, when you have that diagnosis, it doesn't mean that you're going to come in that day. I think that's what I wish people knew as well, is that I don't care if I sign a contract that day, it's the long game for me. I just want to be your choice when it happens. I want everybody to have the ability to choose where they live and ultimately where they die, because that's important. And I hate when that choice is taken away from people because it has to be.

Ben Smith (48:45):

Yeah. Jenna, I think that's a theme that we've seen with a lot of our episodes is I think sometimes by trying to retain all of your independences, sometimes you lose all of your independence. And so if it's a continuum and I'm losing a little bit of independence, but I've retained the majority of it, maybe that's a better solution. And I think that's the hard part I think in aging is I think we're just assuming that we're just going to retain the entirety of everything we always could do, will always be intact, and then when I can, I'll worry about it then. But I think if you're making kind of gradual decreases in terms of the things that you can do, I think you're going to be happier, live longer, and maybe have a more fulfilling end of life stage there. But I want to just ask one more question on the industry side, is that, okay, so say that maybe the industry doesn't respond very well here is that you see a wave, you going to see a mismatch of supply and demand. What if the industry isn't going to respond quickly enough? And I know you've talked a lot about choice today in planning early, so you can have that choice. What risks are we facing as a society if maybe we don't have the supply side? Maybe catch up a little bit here

Jenna Biehn (50:01):

If we don't have safe senior living places for people to go. I think that we see the healthcare industry just a tidal wave at them because they're going to have to make up the shortage. So if there's not a safe place for people to live, they'll be admitted to the hospital. That's what we see all the time. We see that with mental health patients. We see that with older people with dementia and Alzheimer's. If there's not a safe place to go, they get dumped at the hospital. So we already see what a shortage in healthcare there is, but those are the people that have to take people. They don't have a chance. They cannot say no. It's an unsafe discharge to send someone home that cannot safely live there. So I think if we don't catch up with senior living needs, we will see the healthcare industry just be overwhelmed with that population.

Curtis Worcester (50:51):

Yeah. Well here's hoping that doesn't happen. Right, exactly. So Jenna, we have one closing question for you. Probably going to stay a little on topic, if I could guess, based on your answers today, but it's a question focused directly at you. So our show, we're all about retirement success and helping people find that. So I have to ask you personally here, what does that mean for you? How are you trying to plan or find your retirement success?

Jenna Biehn (51:23):

Sure. So I'm having the conversations that are uncomfortable. I have a 6-year-old and I don't talk to her about where I'm going to retire, but I certainly talk to her about money a lot different than how it was talked to me about it. When we're paying the bill at restaurants, I'm letting her give the card to the waitress. I'm letting her on the customer copy. She signs her name. I keep it. But those are conversations we have about money as a family. And when she is older, I'm also an older mom. So I will have those conversations early with her and let her know that it's not my expectation that she cares for me. I think so many people in the generation that I work with now, not as much, the generation coming in with baby boomers, their kids feel such an obligation to care for their parents, and they feel like such failures when they couldn't do that.

(52:13):

That will be a conversation I have with my kids because I know from talking to these people that my senior residents, they didn't want their kids to have to give up their lives for them. But the children feel such an obligation. So that is the conversations that I will have. That's the conversations that I have with my parents. What are your expectations for your end of life? And my parents are prone to say, oh, I don't care. Just you guys take care of yourself. Those conversations are important. And I think by me starting those conversations with my kids, with my parents, it's going to shape my future. It is my intention to come to senior living. I now know how great it is. It's a full day, but you have a beautiful apartment. It's safe. They always run on generators, which in the northeast is huge.

(53:04):

You never lose power. But I certainly plan much differently than I did before I, in my twenties did just the standard employer match. I definitely put a lot more in now, now that I see what senior living looks like and what it costs. If you want a high quality, I think having those conversations, if you're married with your spouse because age at different rates, that's the hardest thing that I see here is a married couple that comes in and one has Alzheimer's and one could run a marathon still. That's so hard. We are lucky to have a continuum of care. So one spouse could go to independent living and one could go to memory care, but that is so hard. You've spent three quarters of your life with one person, and I don't think that's talked enough about as married people. So that's a conversation my husband and I have. What are our expectations? Because they're quite different. I think these are conversations that we need to have early on. Of course, I'm going to live right where I work here, but I'll be touring. I'll be taking advantage of the free high quality dining meals that they offer on tours, all of that stuff. I think just the conversation piece, that's what I do. I always want to have an open dialogue with my friends. Money is not taboo to me. I have those conversations with my best friends. I try and make myself their power of attorney, all of my friends, so I can make those decisions for them. They don't always get on board, but that's my goal.

Ben Smith (54:27):

Love it. Well, Jenna, thank you so much for coming on today. This is, again, very informative, lots of kind of fun to just kind of go through, figure out. Again, these are the things that, as you kind of said, is I think the more disciplines that we can kind of get around these topics, I think the better that we're all going to be armed with things. So again, just kind of sharing your industry expertise with us and our listeners I think really accomplishes that. So thank you for coming on and sharing it with us. We really appreciate you and we will, I'm sure love to have you on the show at some point down the road.

Jenna Biehn (55:00):

Absolutely. You guys, it was great.

Ben Smith (55:02):

Alright,

Curtis Worcester (55:03):

Thank you Jenna.

Jenna Biehn (55:04):

Take care.

Curtis Worcester (55:04):

All right. Well that was certainly an eyeopener, Ben. I think we talk about long-term care a lot, and it's kind of a through thread in a lot of these shows, but today we really dove into what happens when maybe the planning doesn't keep pace with the reality. Right? I

Ben Smith (55:19):

Totally agree. Message here really wasn't about fear, it's about urgency and hopefully inspiration to be proactive, as she said, is just thinking a couple years out and before you get to that point of it's crisis and I need to be somewhere and you don't have a choice, boy, that's a tough place to be. So I think that was a lot of the, if you were to take one outtake of today, I think that was something that was really important.

Curtis Worcester (55:44):

Absolutely, and I know we said it to her, but again, thanks so much again to Jenna Biehn for coming on our show, and as always, thank you for everybody listening to our show today.

Ben Smith (55:55):

And I know there's, obviously, you can go to our blog as we say every time, but you can go to there to find a little bit more of the connections and obviously Jenna's contact if you want to. Obviously we're in Northern Maine and she's in Oro, so you can kind of connect with Jenna if you want to talk to her a little bit more about what Dirigo Pines offers. So you can go to blog dot guidance point llc.com/ 1 1 6 for episode 116 and find some more information there. But as Curtis said, we really appreciate you tuning in and hopefully you got something out of today. Thanks and enjoy the summer.

Outro (56:30):

Ladies and gentlemen, you've just listened to an information filled episode of the Retirement Success in Maine Podcast. While this show is about finding more ways to improve your retirement happiness guidance point, advisor's mission is to help our clients create a fulfilling retirement. We do financial planning so that people can enjoy retirement and align their monetary resources to their goals. If you are wondering about your own personal success, we invite you to reach out to us to schedule a 45 minute listening session. Our advisors will have a conversation with you about your goals, your frustrations, and your problems. Make sure you check out guidance point advisors on our blog, Facebook and LinkedIn, and you can always check out more episodes of this podcast on iTunes and Spotify and of course, keep on finding your retirement success.